STUGs = Stupid Totally Useless Germans?

[Ex Bellator]

I must have played a dozen battles using Stugs and I've never had any sucess with them.

The usual scenario is -

a) I carefully manouevre my unbuttoned Stug into a cunning ambush position - hull down, narrow field of fire, certain line of advance where only one target presents itself at a time, the best I can do.

A Sherman wanders around a corner 250m away straight into my brilliant ambush. I yell "Shoot!"

c) I scream "FOR GOD'S SAKE SHOOT!"

d) Stug just sits there looking at the Sherman while I turn the air blue for 20 seconds.

e) Sherman turns it's turret, BLAM, Stug dies.

I know that in RL Stugs were very effective, but they seem totally reluctant to target anything for me in this game. I'd really like to hear from anyone who uses Stugs regularly and sucessfully, or anyone who feels the same as me. Thanks guys.

[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Rex_Bellator ]

[jwxspoon]

I have found the Howitzer armed stugs to be useless, but the Stug IIIg has been very effective. I once dueled my two Fireflies against three stugs and lost both Fireflies in the same turn.

The key for me is as you mentioned to set up the stug with the intention of using it as an armored AT gun.

JW

[Soddball]

Range and narrow arc of fire are crucial. At a decent range (700m+) The StuG will wipe the floor with any standard-armed Sherman. Letting them get close is a recipe for disaster. In a PBEM game, I raced a Sherman down a road head-on against a Stug, and blew it apart at 90m with a single shot. I don't know what the StuG was playing at, but it may well have been more intent on my accompanying infantry.

Your problem isn't a new one for me though, and I sympathise because I get the same problem. Maybe it's a range issue which becomes apparent because of the short ranges CM fights at?

[Priest]

No such issues here I use them all the time. The trick that you need to use them successfully depends on the situation. Obviously you are using them in an AT role so on the defense look for a narrow lane of fire (maybe 20-30 degrees) and by all means get hull down. A trick I like to use is then support the STUG position with 3-4 AT guns that are hidden. To be honest I have actually intentionally given away my STUG's position to draw the enemy in. Also remember that in a 1 on 1 battle the tank should usually win if all else is equal. That is why a tank was more desireable than an assault gun. I almost never take one STUG but usually 3. If given a choice take a Hetzer for pure AT duty (again especially on the defense) but if you want AP/HE ability on a good chassis then the STUG is a damned fine vehicle

[Slapdragon]

Boy, I have a Stuh 42 taking on all comers right now. Seems fine to me. Not a Tiger, but certianly better than a Marder in terms of versatility.

[Chad Harrison]

the best tactic i have ever used is to not the enemy know where the StuG is. this is my tactic for just about everything. if they dont know where my boys are, if makes them much more effective.

on the other hand, i was testing how long it takes AFV's to target moving targets. for the germans, i used all the AC's, mark IV, hetzer, and the StuG IIIG. the StuG reacted by far the slowest. the targets (medium tanks) where able to move MUCH farther when the StuG were shooting. in my games, i would buy a hetzer over a StuG ANY day. if i want a dual purpose, ill go with the mark IV. if you want to use the StuG, just leave them under the bushes until the latter parts of the game and get some shots in! secrecy is the center of the game.

[Pak40]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rex_Bellator:

[QB]

A Sherman wanders around a corner 250m away straight into my brilliant ambush. I yell "Shoot!"

[QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This sounds like you're using the Stug III primarily as an AT weapon. It is good against tanks but the Hetzer is cheaper and more effective as a AT weapon. A Hetzer would have deflected that 75mm round, most likely.

Stug is a better multi-pupose SP gun. I usually start out using them against infantry targets. If a good AT situation arrises then I will take advantage of it, but mostly I use it against infanty.

Try using Veteran or Crack vehicles, they usually can squeeze a round of faster and have a better chance to hit.

[F_Paulus]

The StuH42 is a fantastic weapon for urban warfare. The blast value for the HE rounds alone are worth the price of admission. The 10.5cm gun on this puppy is very handy when used as a support weapon. When used in that role, though, I keep the StuH away from the cutting edge of the front lines, because it is vulnerable to infantry AT weapons like the PIAT or bazooka.

I've never found the StuG to be a terribly effective AT weapon, simply because the armor is rather thin. Plus, you need at least three to be effective, so that they can cover one another on the advance. As a defensive weapon against infantry, similar to the StuH42, they can be very effective. I've never found targetting to be a problem. In fact, depending on the crew, my StuG have been "trigger happy", and that is the death knell (for the German crew) when used against late war Shermans.

------------

Paulus

[Slapdragon]

The StuH42 is the best anti-M2HB weapon the Germans have, properly employed. The Wespe and the Hummel are vulnerable to return fire from the .50 from pretty far off, and if the .50 has angle on the tank look out. But the StuH42 is immune. A round or two from the StuH42 kills almost any MG nest, it cam take out a pair of halftracks sitting together, is murder on an armored car that blunders by, and its gun can take on stone buildings.

The trick is, cover it with an AT weapon and infantry.

[Ex Bellator]

Good stuff, I knew it was probably just me using them wrong in the first place.

After reading the posts I realise that they usually don't have much support and I no doubt rely too much on getting the first shot away in a straight one-on-one shoot out. Probably I don't keep them far enough back as well.

I usually play small'ish TCP games which restricts the amount of support I have around, but I'll try to help them out in future.

Another good point was to take Hetzers for AT duty if playing a QB, and STU-H42s for AP duty. I suppose it was my cheapskate nature trying to combine both roles in one AFV. What do they say about a Jack-Of-All-Trades...

To be honest I doubt that I'll bother to buy them again, especially after reading Chads test results, but when I get STUGs in scenarios I'll hopefully put up a better fight with them next time.

[Chad Harrison]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rex_Bellator:

Another good point was to take Hetzers for AT duty if playing a QB, and STU-H42s for AP duty. I suppose it was my cheapskate nature trying to combine both roles in one AFV. What do they say about a Jack-Of-All-Trades...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

to me, thats the trick to QB. you have to decide on whether you want to get a vehicle that moderately fills all roles, or one that surpases in one role. i almost always go for the latter.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rex_Bellator:

To be honest I doubt that I'll bother to buy them again, especially after reading Chads test results, but when I get STUGs in scenarios I'll hopefully put up a better fight with them next time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

StuG as stated above are still pretty good for an anti infantry role, and when it comes up, and AT role. DONT go tank hunting though. you may get lucky, but almost everytime, you toast. if you want cheap AT AFV, take the hetzer hands down. that 60degree frontal armour will defelect a LOT of incoming rounds (75mm and even 76mm!) from a hull down position. in my test, the hetzer was quicker to react and MUCH more accurate. why? im sure theres a reason, but i like the hetzer for AT role.

[Agua]

Just differences in use, I suppose. StuG III's are my consistent choice in a short-75 game. They work well for me held back a support role for the groundpounders. They Also work well for me in flank support along with a panther in wide open QB's around 1500 points.

[Soddball]

I ran some tests using the StuGIIIg(late) and Panzer IV. I created a flat piece of land divided into strips using tall pines. The board was 800m square. Each lane was 760m long and 80m wide. I used 6 lanes, and placed a StuG at one and a US tank at the other. The tank models I used were 105, M4, M4A3, Stuart, M4A1 and (can't remember 6th) - to try to simulate the types of US units I would expect to see in a Short 75 battle.

I ran the test 10 times, and on average the StuGs lost 2.4 out of 6 tanks, compared to 4.7 of the US tanks.

When I ran the test with the Panzer IVJ, on average I lost 2.9 Panzers out of 6 tanks, compared to 4.4 of the US tanks.

It may be to do with the higher velocity of the StuG gun. Targeting was instant (less than a second) for all tanks, which started the test unbuttoned.

[Warmaker]

I seem to have much better luck with the StuH'42 over the StuGIIIG, maybe because of the way I use them (probably bring them out too early). I'll jump on the bandwagon of the StuH'42's value in killing soft targets. The StuG is good all around and can carry a decent ammo loadout for most situations.

If you're one of those Axis players that likes to get their armored AT units involved, I recommend the extremely cheap Hetzer but I thoroughly love the Jagdpanzer IV/70 versions and the Panzer IV/70! These are powerful and well armored. The sloped 60mm front armor of the JgdPzIV/70 is great but the improved Panzer IV/70 is oustanding! 80mm of sloped frontal armor. Quite good for dusting off those desperate tungsten rounds!

[KiwiJoe]

In short-75 games they rock. That 50mm front turret armour on the PZ Iv is just too weak to forgive. I buy the Stug IV simply because of its higher ammo load (63 vs 54). Always use a min of 2 side by side. Hunt over a hill crest and maintain hulldown postions. The stug is a small afv to start with, hulldown its a bitch to hit and hard to I.D. If you can engage those Sherman 75s at 750m+ the armour is *just* good enough to bounce incoming rounds giving you a MAJOR advantage. Last, but not least, is the cost issue. These things are extremely cheap for what you get and in 1500 point games they allow you to buy 3 decent afvs instead of only 2.

[Berlichtingen]

I find the StuGIIIG to be an outstanding weapon... much better than most German tanks (Panther excepted). The trick is to hold them back initially. Once you commit, keep them moving from position to position. If you leave them in one spot, I find that they tend to die (which seems to be true in RL as well)

[dieseltaylor]

Last night in a quick battle (1250pts) against my brother, who was trying to race Stuarts and a Hellcat around my flanks a Stug111 killed a stuart the hellcat and a sherman!

I must admit when I was down to the Stu and 2 stu42 against the Hellcat and Sherman I thought I was dead meat but the troops came good! Yeah

[Moriarty]

I like 'em. I've not purchased a Panther, Tiger or KT in a QB ... as I prefer multiple AFVs.

[Michael Emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rex_Bellator:

I must have played a dozen battles using Stugs and I've never had any sucess with them.

The usual scenario is -

a) I carefully manouevre my unbuttoned Stug into a cunning ambush position - hull down, narrow field of fire, certain line of advance where only one target presents itself at a time, the best I can do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you sure that they will fire from a hull down position? Not having used them myself, I don't know the answer to that, but I have this nagging little half memory trying to tell me that they don't. Worth checking.

Michael

[Ex Bellator]

Michael - they definitely do. I started another thread on that subject on the main forum a while back as to me it didn't make sense.

I was told that the 'Hull Down' signified the lower hull being covered. I still didn't agree at the end of it because I doubt that the to hit penalty is calculated on a pro rata basis.

There was also discussion on the fact that some assault guns etc. have a superstructure listed as well as an upper/lower hull which would allow them to fire from hull down. I'm not at home at the moment so can't recall if the Stug is one of them, but the JPzIV did have a superstructure. IMHO this didn't make sense, if I look at a Jpz IV I can't see anything which could be classed as superstructure.

The really confusing thing for me was that Hummels/Marders/Wespes didn't have a superstructure rating, merely an upper and lower hull. To me they look like they have a large gun shield on a hull, and I would be more inclined to call that superstructure than anything visible on a JPzIV.

[D'arcy Montague]

I must agree with Berlichtingen, hold them back and keep them moving once committed.

The standard german tactic when on the advance, was to hold them back about 1000 yards behind the advancing infantry. When the infantry were held up by anything too hard or time consuming for them to deal with, the Stug's would dash foward and overwhelm the enemy battle position/AFV with sheer weight of fire. Hence "Assault gun".

When applied to combat mission, it is important to note that the above tactic makes two assumptions:

1. Shock value is largely dependant on a combination of surprise and superiorty of numbers. So take a few of them, three is a good number. Do your best to conceal them from the enemy until you need them. When you do bring them out don't pussyfoot around, hit them hard.

2. The advancing infantry have positively identified the enemy threat and its location. In game terms this means that you should have gathered a good picture of the pieces in play before commiting your Stug's.

Lastly, work in concert with the infantry, this cannot be stressed enough. It's often useful to have a platoon embarked with the Stug's when using them in this role. You'll look hard as nails aswell!

[Silvio Manuel]

StuG are very useful, esp. in a Short 75 game. I'm pretty sure that they have THE highest ft/sec of any Short 75 gun.

[GAZ NZ]

Regarding the above post consider me the US player

Well thats what happens alot.

Me mate Tripps has a STUG sitting there

he sees my troops

SHOOT yells tripps!!

nothing

This goes on for a few turns

Hes thne sees my tank a sherman of course

SHOOT yells tripps

Nothing happens

Lucky for him me sherman passes by.

But i mean whats with this?

This happens too much.

A BUG?

OR STUG STUPID USELESS GERMANS?

I hope its STUG so i can win a game!!

LOL

But yeah this happens a lot.

Anyone else seen this.

I mean i know things can happen alot in a game where the crew are very drunk and forget to fire ocassionaly but if this is so the germans are alcoholics to the max! Especially in STUG crews.

Very Strange with it happenning alot.

[Tripps]

i always take one, no matter what the scenario is.

Trouble is, in a recent fight, i've had the thing 150 yards away from a heavy building with 3-4 enemy units in it, the stuH42 can spot 2 of the units, and i've tried targeting them and the building over multiple turns, hunting backwards and forwards, but the bloody thing wont fire!!

:confused:

ah well, still rate them tho, armoured arty with a half decent AT weapon if desperate

[Tripps]

wow, posted same time, same topic, same damn game!