Alright then, so you don't like the demo scenarios? Here's a solution:

[kmead]

So, many of you may be aware of the ongoing debate (whine) about whether or not the demo scenarios are good enough to highlight the qualities of CMBB and grab the unwashed masses interest and attention. In the course of the debate esteemed forum member Chad Harrison, offered up an excellent solution. With the cooperation of BFC this would give you the opportunity to show what a master you and or a team of your closest friends can do.

To wit:

Chad Harrison

When the full version comes out, perhaps we can either suggest some better scenarios, or create ones ourselves. I doubt that BFC/BTS would change anything unless a better suggestion was given and agreed on by the majority of players.

Chad

I honestly think this is the best suggestion I have heard(seen) here. I vote that we have a competition for creating the best demo scenarios using the shipping version of CMBB.

You will recieve one week to create it and send it to a review committee that will then forward a list of finalists to BFC for final judging.

BFC will then choose whether our efforts are any better than their own and can include them if they see fit in a revised Demo of CMBB.

I think this falls in the category of my favorite Bill Mauldin Willy and Joe cartoon: "If you knows of a better hole then go git it..." or something to that effect .

Now clearly this will require the cooperation of our esteemed hosts and some effort on our part. If anyone else likes this idea (in particular Steve) kindly chime in.

I for one am sick of the incessant complaints on this subject and this seems to be a sensible way to resolve this by allowing all you hotshots to demonstrate your fine abilities.

Any takers?

edited due to my inability to write even though English is my only language...

[ September 09, 2002, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: kmead ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Put up or shut up.

I love it - and everyone wins. I look forward to downloading the entries. Now we get to see what people think a "suitable demo" will be.

[Goanna]

If Steve sanctions it, I'm in since technically, I did suggest it first.

[kmead]

Goanna

If Steve sanctions it, I'm in since technically, I did suggest it first.

Sorry, I must have missed your suggestion, you are welcome to all the credit you deserve

[rune]

Using what parameters? You guys take into consideration what vehicles it can have, as any new ones increase the demo size. Keep it to the timeframe and with the units in the demo, and see what you can do.

Rune

[aka_tom_w]

Goanna

Member

Member # 195

posted September 09, 2002 12:04 PM

"Honestly Steve, did you put the same time into crafting the demo scenarios as others in the full

game? If not, after you have gotten your core return customers and you have time, I would

recommend going back and providing new or improved demo scenarios with CMBB so that those of

us who could make you converts from the twitch crowd can do so ever so much easier. I think it is

possible using your engine to make demo scenarios that fulfil your stated purpose above and also

draw in new customers (even some twitchers). If you want some help in designing, editing or

polishing them, I would be more than happy to help for no charge if the pros you already have on board are too busy."

this must be that Silver Lining they talk about in the Dark Cloud

no doubt about it

Goanna posted the suggestion first.

It would be interesting to see what the community at large comes up with for a "suitable" third additional Demo scenario.

Can we discuss the objective, target audience/market, parameters and goal(s) of the assignment and any possible limitations that it might have? (size?)

(sorry, I'm sort of in the education business my self so I like to have a clearly defined assignment with all the silly questions like "When is it due? and "How big can it be?" answered up front.

Who will judge this contest and what is the judgeing criteria? Is there a scale or rubric to base the score or mark on? If not, a rubric for scoring should be proposed and discussed and agreed upon prior to judging.

Also there will be some issue here with the fact that not everyone will receive the own copy of CMBB at the same time, most notably folks outside the USA will be subject to the slow down of the customs modifier in the delivery routine )

BUT it is a GREAT idea

I am happy to credit Goanna with its origin has I believe he was the first to post it

Good work Goanna!

-tom w

[ September 09, 2002, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Panzer Leader]

Rune memtioned a very important factor: increasing the size of the download by adding additional units. However, it's not just the units, but the weather, the date, the ground conditions. It's also true that other things like trenches and buildings would increase the size. Was every type of tile used? Was every type of unit used?

I think the only way this would be possible would be to use the exact same units and maps as the demos used, just altered without adding additional components (e.g. you could add more scattered trees or change their placement in Citadel, but couldn't add tall pines)

Also, you could change the number and positions of forces present, but couldn't add anything new (e.g. change it to 3 T-34's and add a company of regular INF in Yelnia, but you could not change Germany's AT guns to 75mm)

An interesting idea, but I wonder how much that demo is 'optimized' to make it unworkable for ay other scenario.

[Panzer Leader]

Also (!) you could not use other elevations than those used in the demo IIRC since those too use different tiles. Maybe that is the reason for not having too much height difference in the demos?

[kmead]

Rune:

I think that it can only use the units in the released demo, so that beyond changing out the scenarios there will be little to do besides make Matt's life a living hell for another 48 hours when its released

I think that if BFC will be the final arbiter of choosing, they could make the rules just as they did with the modelling contest. This time it will just draw on other abilities from some of our more learned friends.

Clearly this would need to be fully fleshed out, I am trying to get a sense of interest for doing such a thing. Lets see if some of the all knowing will put their hat into the ring publicly.

I think I might like to try myself if for no other reason than to learn more about the game and enjoy the public humiliation of my sad attempt Especially compared to some of your creations.

[Michael Dorosh]

Steve has had the final word on this in Scipio's thread, but I like the idea of a contest anyway - not because I want to see any more scenarios added to the demo, but because I want to see what the complainers can come up with - those that complain the loudest are often the ones least likely to try and effect actual change.

We can have our own informal contest and rate the results - with bonus points, perhaps, for fewest bitmaps used, or fewest individual units used. Perhaps we will be astonished at how good a demo scenario someone can come up with with the restrictions on unit types, terrain types, etc.

[russellmz]

suggested guidelines:

-no new units/terrain/features/STUFF that aren't in the demo:sewer movement, reinforcements etc

-similar sized map(s) to the two non-tuturial scenarios (most people think the tutorial is fine i think)

-show off new changes from cmbo as much as possible

[Battlefront.com]

Just to make sure people understand...

1. In theory any number of new scenarios can be created, so long as they do not use a single tile (even a bend in a road), weather condition, time of day, unit, weapon, uniform, elevation, season, etc. which is not in either of the two scenarios.

2. We are not adding a third scenario or replacing the existing two. Period. And even if we did, we would do it ourselves like we have the other 6. So the entire contest idea is not only unsanactioned, it will be ignored as such.

I do think it is rather humerous (and a bit insulting) that so many people are SO sure that they can develop a scenario that people will think is the best thing since sliced bread. It ain't going to happen. Wargamer's Law #1 is wargamers bitch at anything and everything, no matter how lucky they are to be playing it. Wargamer's Law #2 is that if you get 10 wargamers in one room and ask them a single factual question you will get 15 different "#$&* you, I am right!" answers. Wargamer's Law #3 is that if you as 10 wargamers in one room a single question of opinion, you will get 34.5 "#$&* you, I am right!" answers, 5 bloddy lips, 2 brusised ribs, and 1 broken nose. And that is if the opinion being asked is not controversial

Also, it is so much easier to make a scenario AFTER everybody is already familiar with the game system. If you think a scenario any of you guys come up with would be judged the same way that the demo scenarios have been judged, you are mistaken.

Steve

[ September 09, 2002, 11:54 PM: Message edited by: Battlefront.com ]

[Michael Dorosh]

My point exactly, Steve.

Let's see them try.

[Tarquelne]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

My point exactly, Steve.

Let's see them try.

I agree. BFC doesn't need to acknowledge it in any way.... if they snigger hopefully they'll do so among themselves... but I think it'd be fair play for them to snigger openly. And if someone really does come up with a better scenario - one that fulfills all of BFC's goals and requirements (There ought to be a time limit, btw) _and_ is more "fun" - then I imagine BFC will be happy to admit they've learned something. It should be a learning experience.... for someone.

[KG_Jag]

Why so negative Battlefront? If the guys don't suceed, you can say I told you so (in a nice way of course). If they do suceed or even come close, all the gamers out here win. The key is that they care enough about the game to try.

[Battlefront.com]

jagcommander,

Why so negative Battlefront? If the guys don't suceed, you can say I told you so (in a nice way of course).

Because...

The key is that they care enough about the game to try.

To me the key is that I busted my ass for two friggin years and created a vastly improved and expanded game when I could have instead sat on my ass and churned out a half baked sequel, yet sold probably just as many units. Now I have to sit here and see an endless drone of whining on and on and on about how horrible the demo is because the scenarios were not 100% to their liking. Pardon me for being a might bit ticked off that this whining (and it IS whining) is distracting discussion from the hundreds of improvements and 2 years of solid effort that went into the demo people now have in their hands.

Yeah, I do take this as a personal insult. Not that people don't like the scenarios I made, but they have lost all perspective on what is really important. A game that offers literally unlimited scenarios spanning 4 years of warfare, 7 nations, 300+ vehicles, more TO&E than I care to remember, etc. should not be overshadowed by petty issues. It really is disrespectful. The opinions have been expressed, noted, and addressed. For God's sakes drop it!

If that is negative in your opinion, you should see what I am like when I'm mad

Steve

[ September 10, 2002, 01:14 AM: Message edited by: Battlefront.com ]

[Kwacker]

Well said Steve. I totally sympathize - it sounds lame but people really should remember the heart and soul you guys obviously put into your work. I for one whole-heartedly appreciate it.

However, don't take it personally - your earlier post in this thread indicates you know your hard core customer base really well They are gonna bitch but they are still gonna spend 95% of their waking hours thinking about CM - it's just the nature of the beast.

[Tarquelne]

Now I have to sit here and see an endless drone of whining on and on and on about how horrible the demo is because the scenarios were not 100% to their liking.

Calm down...

That's an overstatement... the whining is not "endless", and few if any of the "critics" have the attitude you describe. Steve, it's OK to be emotive, but one should seek for one's emotions, both positve _and_ negative, to be rooted in a real situation... rational, as opposed to irrational.

The *&^% wankers whom you should be be allowed to beat with a rubber hose are the ones who can't be bothered to comprehend the reasons BFC didn't design CMBB's demo with the same goals as CMBO's.

I've counted them. There are less than 12. I suggest you focus your frustration, identify them, create a double log on, and apply verbal abuse.

Ok, ok! /insert wild hand waving/ It's unprofessional, unethical, and fundamentally unhealthy.... but, well... _I'd_ like to do it.

[Battlefront.com]

Tarqulene

That's an overstatement... the whining is not "endless", and few if any of the "critics" have the attitude you describe.

I disagree. This should be a dead issue. But it continues. So until it stops, it has no end. Theerefore until that happens, it is endless

And the attitude is not point. It is that the people droning on and on about how they don't like the scenarios aren't really listening to the counter criticism. And even if they are, the certainly aren't listening to the reasonable request to "drop it". There is NOTHING to be gained from keeping this issue an issue. It serves no purpose, and therefore it is a distraction.

Now, don't get me wrong... I don't want everybody to just sit here and say how great eveything is and how absolutely perfect the game is. Far from it. But instead of seeing yet another thread/post about how wrong we are and right they are, how about talking about the game features? What they like, don't like about them. What they think the game engine's advancements are and where it perhaps didn't go far enough. In short, I wish people would talk about the game instead of the scenarios, because when the full version comes out the demo scenarios will be totally irrelevant to those who are bitching about them now, but the game will be EVERYTHING...

And I do not buy the "we know your customers better than you, so you should change the scenarios right now or all is lost" line of arguing. I don't tell these guys how to do their job, so I don't think they should (after a healthy and honest discussion) still insist on beating a dead horse.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Kwacker,

They are gonna bitch but they are still gonna spend 95% of their waking hours thinking about CM - it's just the nature of the beast.

Oh, I know that all too well Still, it gets REALLY old quite quickly...

Steve

[von Lucke]

Well, umm, gee-wizz /kicks dirt with foot/ I think the scenarios are just fine /wipes nose with back of hand/. I mean, they illustrate some of the major enhancements with the game engine (terrain and troop graphics, AP penetration and AFV morale, movement orders and Covered Arcs), while keeping the demo download to a reasonable size.

You wanna tease the consumer into buying the full product, not give the whole thing away for free --- that's why you only get to test drive that Ferrari, not take it home until you decide to buy it!

[Tarquelne]

people....aren't really listening to the counter criticism.....

/snip/

No need to tell me, I'd like to verbally abuse such people.

I enjoyed the scenarios, and was happy that they highlighted a number of new things, but I was someone who was disappointed with them, comparing them to CMBO demo's. I went online, read the relevent threads, and discovered why you designed the scenarios the way you did, and thought "Oh, OK, now I see. Good show."

The information was really rather easy to discover. On the last three pages on the forum, IIRC, you've explained at least twice, Madmatt twice, and Michael D. 4 times. I DO think that's plenty, which is why I mentioned beating people with a rubber hose.

[KG_Jag]

Steve, we understand (at least to some degree) all the work that went into CMBB and look forward to seeing all the fruit of that labor when the full game hits our mailboxes. While we all look forward to the full game, we have not seen it yet. However, most if not all of the opinions (both the ones you like and the ones you don't) address the demo with the full understanding that it is "just" a demo. The concerns address whether or not that demo could have been better, if it was different. It can cannot be fairly said that those that conclude that it could are also saying that the full game could be better if different. I thing you are correct for the most part that this subject will be on the back burner, if not go away, when the full game is on hard drives. But until then, there is only the demo (yes--in the context of being "just" a demo).

[yapma]

steve:

don't get so irritated so quickly.

cmbo is my all time favorite computer game. i don't know what higher compliment i can give you guys.

i believe you that the great stuff you talk about will be visible in the final version.

that said, i was really looking forward to downloading the demo, and i was subsequently disappointed.

i appreciate the game is a labor of love, and understand why you may tire of the sort of customer feedback that most companies would love to receive.

but i think most of the complaints really are intended as constructive criticism.

[Michael Dorosh]

Well, thanks to T. for pointing out that I am on Steve's side on this one, but the point to just drop it is apt. I hope Steve's ire was not directed at me - I just wanted to point out that I don't think it would be possible to come up with a "better" scenario for the demo given the limited parameters necessary - and thought both the Yelnya and Kursk scenarios were highly demonstrative of those campaigns - in terms of atmosphere, terrain and force composition. My beloved GD fought in the Yelnya area I do believe and so I have done a little bit of reading on the fighting in that area. I don't suggest one needs to be a Russian Front grog to have enjoyed them though, or gotten the main benefit - an understanding of game features - from them.

I still say if someone really thinks they can do better, go ahead and try, but since this challenge was posted, I think the grumbling abuot the scenarios has been diminished greatly - in other words, had the intended effect. Congrats kmead, you did good work!