Bastables Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 Originally posted by JonS: Good lord Bas - who knew you had it in you! :eek: You must be Doroshs' long-lost sister. Or sumfink. I'm Doroshs evil german loving twin. PS I hate Horses in Normandy. 2000 was a bad year for horses in Normandy. [ February 28, 2002, 01:05 AM: Message edited by: Bastables ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikester Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 Hey, I have a copy of Nafziger's "The German Order of Battle, Panzers and Artillery in WWII". This book gives, some pretty exacting details on OOB's for all German Panzer Regiments in WWII along with some snapshots in time (i.e. on a specific date) what actual units strenths were in terms of operational tanks by model. This sounds like what you are looking for (at least should be able to provide you with some data points). If you can tell me which Panzer Divisions were stationed on the Eastern Front that you are interested in, I'll look up whatever info they list for each. Regards Mikester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikester Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 More info...... Charles Sharp lists following in "German Panzer Tactics in WWII".... Information below is from chart on page 71 and is prefaced by: "The schedule of Panther units reaching the front line units in 1943 and 1st half of 1944 was as follows:" Note: Dates shown are listed in chart under heading, "Month to the Front" I Bn, 2nd SS Panzer Regt | Aug 43 | 71 Panthers II Bn, 23rd Panzer Regt | Sep 43 | 96 Panthers I Bn, 2nd Panzer Regt | Oct 43 | 71 Panthers I Bn, 1st Panzer Regt | Nov 43 | 76 Panthers I Bn, 1st SS Panzer Regt | Nov 43 | 96 Panthers I Bn, 26th Panzer Regt | Jan 44 | 76 Panthers I Bn, 11th Panzer Regt | Mar 44 | 79 Panthers II Bn, 5th SS Panzer Regt | Apr 44 | 79 Panthers I Bn, 31st Panzer Regt | Jun 44 | 79 Panthers I Bn, 35th Panzer Regt | Jun 44 | 79 Panthers ******************************* On page 72, there is another chart (only Panther data shown here) prefaced by following: "The chart below gives the tank strength by types actually assigned to German units on the first day of each monthing (indicated) from 1 July 43 to 1 October 44:" Date # Pz. V's ---- --------- 1 Jul 43 = 428 1 Aug 43 = 524 1 Sep 43 = 601 1 Oct 43 = 675 1 Nov 43 = 783 1 Dec 43 = 912 1 Jan 44 = 1084 1 Feb 44 = 1205 1 Mar 44 = 1339 1 Apr 44 = 1617 1 May 44 = 1649 1 Jun 44 = 1898 1 Jul 44 = 2105 1 Aug 44 = 2167 1 Sep 44 = 2160 1 Oct 44 = 1794 I assume by "stength" above they mean actual combat strength deployed on that date. Unfortunately, this appears to be for all active theatres (i.e. not just Eastern Front). Still, gives you some idea of general availability of the Panther Pz. Mk. V over time. Hope this helps. Mikester out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 Mikester I think that was EXACTLY what they were looking for! Good show, lad. Hey, that Nafziger doesn't happen to show the strength and TO&E of Grossseutschland's Aufklarung Abteilung (sp) in Dec of '41 does it? Recon battalion, that is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattias Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 Major, I’m sorry to hear that you feel that way. Your a person that has a lot of interesting angles on different matters but I feel you take the opinions and counter arguments of others too much to heart, and see them as personal criticism rather than simple statements of opinion. I hope this doesn’t mean we can’t discuss things in the future. M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattias Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 Mikster, Good find. Tiger has a different source on page one of this thread but the figures on total number of Panthers deployed seem to be the same. And with the addition of I./Pz.Rgt 31 in December 1943 (76 Pz V) the list of units sent to the front given by your source correlates to the dates and numbers given by MajorB previously in this thread. So by the looks of it those number check out. M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 Originally posted by Bastables: mind you, these figures do not include armament. Interestingly enough, the KwK 42 cost 12,000 RM and therefore was actually *cheaper* than the KwK 40 L/43 with 12,500 RM and the KwK 40 L/48 with 13,500 RM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 Originally posted by M Hofbauer: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bastables: mind you, these figures do not include armament. Interestingly enough, the KwK 42 cost 12,000 RM and therefore was actually *cheaper* than the KwK 40 L/43 with 12,500 RM and the KwK 40 L/48 with 13,500 RM.</font>You’re a legend mate, where did you find the prices Speilberger has for some reason decided not to include the prices for weapons. I still get a chuckle out of your page K98, walnut or beech stock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorBooBoo Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 [ March 01, 2002, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: MajorBooBoo ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorBooBoo Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 [ March 01, 2002, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: MajorBooBoo ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorBooBoo Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 [ March 01, 2002, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: MajorBooBoo ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claus B Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 Originally posted by MajorBooBoo: [QB75mm KwK 37 L/24 8000 75mm StuK 37 L/24 9150 This is from Actung Panzer. There is a price difference between StuK and KWK. The StuK (as used in stug and 251/9) is bolted to the floor and requires a hefty cradle. Are you sure of those prices? Can you cite where you got them? Thanks.[/QB]I think the source for most of such info is Pawlas, Karl (ed.): "Datenblätter für Heeres-Waffen, Fahrzeuge, Gerät", Waffen Revue Sonderdruck W127, 1976 ISBN 3-88088-213-4 Claus B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 Gents, I too have Jentz's books. The Panther book has more detail for the production figures specific for that vehicle. Fernando has already posted them, so I will not repeat it. I took another approach: I poured out all the PzKpfw V counters from my "Panzerblitz" game and counted how many there were. Each counter represents 5 vehicles. This was a much simpler method than all this quoting sources stuff. I highly recommend it. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 Originally posted by MajorBooBoo: "The table on Pg247 dealing with Panzer Strength 15 March 1945 on the eastern front details Panther 776 (Operational 387) PIV 603 (Operational 345) PIV/70 357 (Operational 189) FlaKPz 97 (Operational 50)" This is very compelling evidence that the Panzer IV was still very much a player as late as the closing months of the war. It certainly can be reiterated that in 1944 neither the Panzer IV or the Panther can be called "the backbone". They were both very much in it. Page 188 of'truppen 2 shows this very well. from July 1 till Aug 5 '44, the operational status of SS Panzer Regiment 1 shows that panzer IV were very much a majority palyer in this organization. As an SS unit, I would presume that it would be given preferential treatment. As already said (ahem), only during the bulge was there a excess of panthers (at the detriment of the east no doubt). That cant be taken as an indication of what the Panzer IV and Panther were contributing during 1944 (or 45 it seems).'During the period 5/43 to 8/44 736 Panthers went to SS-Panzer-Divisions and 3,104 Panthers to Heer Panzer Division. There existed seven SS-panzer Divison and on avarage 25 Heer-Panzer-Divisions, This ment that 124 panthers were delivered per Heer Panzer Division and 106 per SS Panzer Division. For deliveries of the PIV, each SS Panzer Division recived 89 during the period, while Heer divisions recived 121.' (2000, Zetterling pg 21) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorBooBoo Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 [ March 01, 2002, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: MajorBooBoo ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorBooBoo Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 [ March 01, 2002, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: MajorBooBoo ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 How is it some people insist on turning threads into pissing matches anyway? Take a couple classes on Inferiority Complex 101 and become an expert? Idle minds wish to know... Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorBooBoo Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 [ March 01, 2002, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: MajorBooBoo ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 If you are interested in price, you have to look at the manufacturing process and not just at components. If you have ever seen a Panther, you will e.g. notice that the armour is slotting in like Lego. Makes it a hell of a lot easier to produce I am sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorBooBoo Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 [ March 01, 2002, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: MajorBooBoo ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 Okay, I went ahead and calculated the Panther availability for each month on the East Front. For the faint of heart I am going to spare you the math and give you the end results. Before I show the results I will say that there are several assumptions embedded within the figures which may or may not be the case. Anyway, without further delay, here are the figures for operational Panthers by month as calculated by yours truly: Jul 1 1943: 200 Aug 1 1943: 161 Sep 1 1943: 182 Oct 1 1943: 195 Nov 1 1943: 163 Dec 1 1943: 233 Jan 1 1944: 220 Feb 1 1944: 179 Mar 1 1944: 219 Apr 1 1944: 363 May 1 1944: 175 Jun 1 1944: 291 Okay, as a check we know what the figures were for May 31st: According to Panzertruppen Vol 2 there were 238 operational Panthers (yes, I know this was posted already, but I'm posting it again for ease of reference). Ultimately I came in a little high, and the problem may lie with the assumptions embedded within the months of February through May. I also ran a min max figure for every month but I will spare you the results and just post the figures that seem to be the closest to reality. If anyone has any questions about how I came up with these numbers I will be happy to address them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 Originally posted by MajorBooBoo: 'During the period 5/43 to 8/44 736 Panthers went to SS-Panzer-Divisions and 3,104 Panthers to Heer Panzer Division. There existed seven SS-panzer Divison and on avarage 25 Heer-Panzer-Divisions, This ment that 124 panthers were delivered per Heer Panzer Division and 106 per SS Panzer Division. For deliveries of the PIV, each SS Panzer Division recived 89 during the period, while Heer divisions recived 121.' (2000, Zetterling pg 21) This further supports that there were slightly more panthers in SS panzer divisions (preferential treatment), a ratio of 106 to 89 of Panthers to PzIV. And it shows that PanzerIV and Panther were very much partners in Army Heer divisions (almost equal) furthering my cause against Panthers being the backbone in 1944. Thanks Bastables.Nope it means the SS Panzer divisions PIV or II abteilungen were routinely downgraded with StuGs for example the 9thSS Panzer Divs II abteilungen before Normandy had 46 PIV and 40 StuGs. 10 SS Panzer Division II/abteilungen had 39 PIV and 38 StuGs (It also never received its Panthers until 1945). You should also have noted that more Panthers were given in total and divided by division to the Heer. (2000 Zetterling pg 290-300). If you had read it before the figures, ahhh I just put them down again 'Cost for the PIV was 103,462 RM the Panther cost 117,100 RM 1,June 1944.' Notice the date it means that the two prices are directly comparable, inflation does not come into it but manufacturing costs and man-hours are added to raw materials. Try to really think about what Andreas has said. Notice how the front hull of the Panther vs. the Front hull of the PIV, count how many more individual plates are needed for the PIV with less ballistic protection. [ February 28, 2002, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: Bastables ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorBooBoo Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 . [ March 01, 2002, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: MajorBooBoo ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 Boobisms responses to threats: The Stolen Concept The stolen concept fallacy is the use of concepts while rejecting their supporting logic. In effect, the debater attempts to "have his cake and eat it too", by simultaneously using and rejecting an argument. Originally posted by MajorBooBoo: They did the Panther was cheaper from a manufacturing standpoint than the older weaker PIV and much cheaper than the Tiger I. [ February 28, 2002, 10:09 PM: Message edited by: Bastables ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 Boobisms responses to threats: The Ad Hominem Attack The Ad Hominem attack focuses on the man, not the argument. For example Albert Einstein was wrong about quantum mechanics, thus destroying his credibility. Therefore, E does not equal mc squared, since he was clearly incompetent. Originally posted by MajorBooBoo: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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