Extreme FOW Question

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Kuma of Finland:

Warning: a long boring list of no interest below. Don't read it. Skip it. Trust me, you'll feel happier that way

I should have heeded your warning, kuma. It grieves me to say this, but I find your suggestions to be largely sensible, some more than others, of course. You've completely ruined my day. I blame you. Boo-hoo.

Michael

[Munter]

Originally posted by Kuma of Finland:

- Show unidentified troops as stars/crosses even if they were actually eliminated (one can't make a difference between a dead person and a person just lying down until getting really close) (would this be a death clock for troops?)

I'll second this! It's way too easy to track enemy casualties by simply watching their symbols disappear under artillery fire.

M

[aka_tom_w]

Has anyone else noticed:

Is it possible that the victory level (while playing in EFOW) goes up indicating some form of advanced knoweldge of KILLS that you are inflicting from the arty that is hitting the enemy BEFORE you know where they are or if you are even targeting where they might be??? :confused:

In the Yelina Stare scenario is is possible as the Soviets to watch the victory score go up as that 76 mm arty falls in the first few turns and determine that you are in fact hitting something? (because your victory points score is going up indicating something has been knocked out or killed?)

Maybe I am TOTALLY decieving myself (I hope so) but I thought I was getting advanced knowledge of the impact of the arty on the enemy by seeing the score for the Soviets go up before I had made contact or fired any rounds other than arty? Can anyone else confirm this or am I dreaming?

Is it possible that that when playing under EFOW that the victory points should be not shown or modified in someway so that you don't know if you are winning or losing? (I'm not sure about this so I just thought I would add my suggestions and observations).

Thanks

Comments? suggestions?

-tom w

[Wolfe]

Another thing I think might give away too much info. When you kill an enemy AT gun it disappears from active LOS and is replaced by its marker. But what is obviously a crew instantly appears next to it every time (atleast I think it does). Does the gun crew go through the same kind of LOS check that all enemy units go through or is it just automatically shown? I'd rather not see this if none of my units would normally have spotted the crew.

- Chris

[aka_tom_w]

page two?

EFOW deserves better then just getting bumped all the way down to page 2 :confused: !

-tom w

[Abbott]

I would like the "extreme" FOW setting to be just that, extreme. The more information taken away from the player the better IMHO

[tar]

I would like to second the suppression of victory points idea.

I would also like to add my endorsement to the suppression of training level as well.

I would expect these to be relatively easy to program, since they don't affect the game engine itself, but merely represent the suppression of output in the user interface.

As I noted above, suppressing the casualties would be nice as well.

Also, if the number of active soldiers isn't shown, then the weapons type & number graphics shouldn't stay on-screen either.

[demoss]

Maybe it's just me, but I haven't found the detailed armor hits useful enough to warrant turning them off for FOW purposes. So I got a penetration versus a partial versus internal armor flaking - so what? I really don't know whether there was any useful effect until it brews up, stops shooting, or bails out.

The only way this could become useful at all is if you've scored several hits and seen how they all did - and by that point, you know anyway that if it isn't dead yet, it's going to be a tough kill. So even then it doesn't tell you much.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by tar:

I would like to second the suppression of victory points idea.

I would also like to add my endorsement to the suppression of training level as well.

I would expect these to be relatively easy to program, since they don't affect the game engine itself, but merely represent the suppression of output in the user interface.

As I noted above, suppressing the casualties would be nice as well.

Also, if the number of active soldiers isn't shown, then the weapons type & number graphics shouldn't stay on-screen either.

I wondered if i was the only one to notice the "clue" of the victory points going up in EFOW when the only thing firing was arty (before any confirmed contact with the enemy) :confused: .

Thanks

-tom w

[ September 04, 2002, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Fred]

Originally posted by demoss:

Maybe it's just me, but I haven't found the detailed armor hits useful enough to warrant turning them off for FOW purposes. So I got a penetration versus a partial versus internal armor flaking - so what? I really don't know whether there was any useful effect until it brews up, stops shooting, or bails out.

The only way this could become useful at all is if you've scored several hits and seen how they all did - and by that point, you know anyway that if it isn't dead yet, it's going to be a tough kill. So even then it doesn't tell you much.

You people do not get it...

An AT gun has a gunner, a loader, an assistant loader and a CO.

And this CO has his binoculars locked on the target.

He can SEE if a shell penetrates; he can SEE if the crew abandons..he can see glancing blows.

He only has one aim...to watch the guns target.

He is not blindfolded...CMBB is right on target.

Fred

[rvalle]

Originally posted by Fred:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by demoss:

Maybe it's just me, but I haven't found the detailed armor hits useful enough to warrant turning them off for FOW purposes. So I got a penetration versus a partial versus internal armor flaking - so what? I really don't know whether there was any useful effect until it brews up, stops shooting, or bails out.

The only way this could become useful at all is if you've scored several hits and seen how they all did - and by that point, you know anyway that if it isn't dead yet, it's going to be a tough kill. So even then it doesn't tell you much.

You people do not get it...

An AT gun has a gunner, a loader, an assistant loader and a CO.

And this CO has his binoculars locked on the target.

He can SEE if a shell penetrates; he can SEE if the crew abandons..he can see glancing blows.

He only has one aim...to watch the guns target.

He is not blindfolded...CMBB is right on target.

Fred</font>

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Originally posted by demoss:

Maybe it's just me, but I haven't found the detailed armor hits useful enough to warrant turning them off for FOW purposes. So I got a penetration versus a partial versus internal armor flaking - so what? I really don't know whether there was any useful effect until it brews up, stops shooting, or bails out.

The only way this could become useful at all is if you've scored several hits and seen how they all did - and by that point, you know anyway that if it isn't dead yet, it's going to be a tough kill. So even then it doesn't tell you much.

To an extent I agree. The usefulness of the info is now limited in EFOW as the gun/tank crew really don't know what is happening with thier target until the bail or brew up. They can see the hits of course (that's why you get the report), but they keep firing until you retarget or they can confirm the kill. I love the new EFOW! :cool:

[Fred]

Originally posted by Vader's Jester:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by demoss:

Maybe it's just me, but I haven't found the detailed armor hits useful enough to warrant turning them off for FOW purposes. So I got a penetration versus a partial versus internal armor flaking - so what? I really don't know whether there was any useful effect until it brews up, stops shooting, or bails out.

The only way this could become useful at all is if you've scored several hits and seen how they all did - and by that point, you know anyway that if it isn't dead yet, it's going to be a tough kill. So even then it doesn't tell you much.

To an extent I agree. The usefulness of the info is now limited in EFOW as the gun/tank crew really don't know what is happening with thier target until the bail or brew up. They can see the hits of course (that's why you get the report), but they keep firing until you retarget or they can confirm the kill. I love the new EFOW! :cool: </font>

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Sorry about earlier Fred. I got a little carried away. No, a lot. I have a habbit of trying to keep all parties at ease with one another by playing mediator. It is sometimes unwelcome of course, and insted of letting things be, I get unecessarly offended.

Peace. . .my friend?

[ September 04, 2002, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: Vader's Jester ]

[Fred]

Originally posted by Vader's Jester:

Sorry about earlier Fred. I got a little carried away. No, a lot.

Peace. . .my friend?

Peace Vader...we wargamers have to stay together...

Fred

[Abbott]

You people do not get it...

An AT gun has a gunner, a loader, an assistant loader and a CO.

And this CO has his binoculars locked on the target.

He can SEE if a shell penetrates; he can SEE if the crew abandons..he can see glancing blows.

He only has one aim...to watch the guns target.

He is not blindfolded...CMBB is right on target.

Fred

You seem to be the one not getting it here Fred . Binoc's do not give you all the information you think. Penetrations seen through them, rarely. Target destroyed, yes a catastrophic hit would be visible, crew bailing through turret hatches sure, hull hatches maybe. Bottom hatches, no.

Extreme FOW issues being discussed go deeper then just the armor hits as well, read up on the thread and see. We are also discussing the fact that you can tell you are damaging your opponent’s forces without having spotted them yet. If this is an engine limitation then we live with it, if not maybe the folks at BTS will take a look at it.

BTS has shown me in the past couple of year’s great products, superior customer interaction and customer service, they actually care about our point of views. While your jumping to their defense is admirable, it is also unneeded in this thread.

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Originally posted by Fred:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Vader's Jester:

Sorry about earlier Fred. I got a little carried away. No, a lot.

Peace. . .my friend?

Peace Vader...we wargamers have to stay together...

Fred</font>

[Fred]

Originally posted by Abbott:

You people do not get it...

An AT gun has a gunner, a loader, an assistant loader and a CO.

And this CO has his binoculars locked on the target.

He can SEE if a shell penetrates; he can SEE if the crew abandons..he can see glancing blows.

He only has one aim...to watch the guns target.

He is not blindfolded...CMBB is right on target.

Fred

You seem to be the one not getting it here Fred . Binoc's do not give you all the information you think. Penetrations seen through them, rarely. Target destroyed, yes a catastrophic hit would be visible, crew bailing through turret hatches sure, hull hatches maybe. Bottom hatches, no.

Extreme FOW issues being discussed go deeper then just the armor hits as well, read up on the thread and see. We are also discussing the fact that you can tell you are damaging your opponent’s forces without having spotted them yet. If this is an engine limitation then we live with it, if not maybe the folks at BTS will take a look at it.

BTS has shown me in the past couple of year’s great products, superior customer interaction and customer service, they actually care about our point of views. While your jumping to their defense is admirable, it is also unneeded in this thread.

Well,

au contraire, mon cher!

I am not known for being a fanboy (ask them!), so I do not defend them.

And you should read more carefully...I talked about things one can see...if there is something no one could see, but the game still tells you, it is a ..bug!

If the Victory Points tell you something you usually can not know, it is a bug...

I just talked about an AT gun Commander, and what I talked about was right on target.

Fred

[Kwazydog]

Heya Guys

I can quote account after account from the gunners perspective in both tanks and AT guns where they describe their rounds boucning, penetrating, immobilising, etc.

Just curious why some of you guys fell we should be hide this info from the player when it is recorded in real life AAR's?

Dan

PS : Ill ask Charles about the victory point issue though and see if this is the case and if something can be done.

[ September 04, 2002, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[Abbott]

(snip) Penetrations seen through them, rarely. Target destroyed, yes a catastrophic hit would be visible, crew bailing through turret hatches sure, hull hatches maybe. Bottom hatches, no.

I disagree Fred. I do not believe you would get as much information as you think from binoculars.

[ September 04, 2002, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: Abbott ]

[Fred]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

Heya Guys

I can quote account after account from the gunners perspective in both tanks and AT guns where they describe their rounds boucning, penetrating, immobilising, etc.

Just curious why some of you guys fell we should be hide this info from the player when it is recorded in real life AAR's?

Dan

PS : Ill ask Charles about the victory point issue though and see if this is the case and if something can be done.

Dan,

just a minority opinion...people that think that NO information is realistic...on a tactical level, every AT gun commander can tell, if a tank you shoot at 100m is disabled or not...it simply does not shoot back

So the level of EFOW is well done by BFC, and, obviously, well researched.

Fred

Fred

[Fred]

double post...

[ September 04, 2002, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: Fred ]

[Treeburst155]

Regarding identifying command vehicles and platoon leaders:

IF it is like CMBO, The tac AI will target leaders whether you know what they are or not. It will also pounce on the highest quality troops first. I haven't played with it enough yet to know if this is the case with CMBB.

That's very interesting about the victory point changes with just arty firing. I hadn't noticed that.

Treeburst155 out.

[Abbott]

just a minority opinion...people that think that NO information is realistic...on a tactical level, every AT gun commander can tell, if a tank you shoot at 100m is disabled or not...it simply does not shoot back Fred

Ah, that clears it up. You meant what can be seen at 100 meters.

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Originally posted by Treeburst155:

Regarding identifying command vehicles and platoon leaders:

IF

That's very interesting about the victory point changes with just arty firing. I hadn't noticed that.

Neither had I TB. If that is true: BTS please fix or somefink! VPs should only be confirmed on units your men can see. Now if you drop arty and an unspotted halftrack brews, then you should see a VP change because you can see the smoke behind that building/woods/whatever. But if it just KO's and it's out of your unit's LOS, the VP should change secretly (but not seen in your display).