Defensive tactics using the Archer

[Kestrl]

I'm not sure how many people purchase and use the Archer in a ME, Probe, Attack, or Assault type battle for defense but I haven't had much luck with deploying it defensivly on the battlefield. Has anyone esle had any luck with the Archer?

I do like its compact and low silhouette and its 76 mm main gun.

I've been positioning the Archer up front but after having two veteran Archers knocked out, I'm thinking thats a bad idea. A better tactic would be to have them behind the lines in a defensive position with good LOS over the battlefield where they can get some long range shots at enemy armor.

A hull down position behind your main defensive line where they can engage enemy armor but since the Archer doesn't have a hunt command you have to judge if its in a hull down position or use the LOS tool. The Archer is a very challenging tank destroyer and I look forward to learning how to effectivly use it on the battlefield.

[ 06-04-2001: Message edited by: Kestrl ]

[David Aitken]

It is essetially a stopgap to employ the 17lb gun before any tanks were specifically designed for it. It's not a tank destroyer as such, just a self-propelled antitank gun. It is vulnerable to mortar fire. If you want to employ the 17lb gun to its best advantage, get a Challenger. Or a Firefly, but I love Challengers to bits.

Think of the Archer as just a mobile 17lb antitank gun. Keep it hull down, away from harmful bullets and explosions and such. It withdraws forward, a characteristic you can use to your advantage, quickly retreating to a new position.

[Kestrl]

You are correct it says in my book of British and American tanks of World War Two that the Archer is a Self-Propelled gun. I just think its a cool AFV and I'd like to learn better tactics when using it on the battlefield. I just saw that under specifications that the Archer MK I had as a secondary armament 1 X 303 cal Bren MG (AA), wish we had that version in CM.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

It is essetially a stopgap to employ the 17lb gun before any tanks were specifically designed for it. It's not a tank destroyer as such, just a self-propelled antitank gun. It is vulnerable to mortar fire. If you want to employ the 17lb gun to its best advantage, get a Challenger. Or a Firefly, but I love Challengers to bits.

Think of the Archer as just a mobile 17lb antitank gun. Keep it hull down, away from harmful bullets and explosions and such. It withdraws forward, a characteristic you can use to your advantage, quickly retreating to a new position.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Redwolf]

The good thing about the archer is that it makes a quite cheap insurance against big tanks.

If you guess you will face lots of StuG/StuH and 75mm vehicles, you will usually infect the battlefield with 57mm/6 pdr AT guns. But if you are not quite sure that no bigger stuff will show up, you cannot guard against them with one single towed bigger gun.

Instead of spending lots of points for several 17pdr guns, which will probably be overkill and eating up points you need to spend in platoons, you can buy a single SP 17pdr (Archer), which can relocate itself to cover the whole front. Of course, several towed guns would be better and your chances are not really good with a single archer. Put at least they are not really bad as if you had no 17pdrs against thick tanks or too few infantry or more cost-effective guns against the small attackers you expect.

Myself, I have bought just one Archer so far and lost it with no result. But then, I usually play with a real tank force and don't try to cover the battlefield with AT guns (towed or SP).

I would buy archers more often if they would be available in the period where the 17pdr had no HE, since it would be very cheap then.

[Bog]

Just wondering....

Has anyone made a scenario including Archers?

[moosehead]

My experience is 0-2. They seem to be very slow ROF and poor accuracy. Plus they seem to be like a big magnet for incoming rounds of any kind. I'll never waste my points on them again.

[L.Tankersley]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bog:

Has anyone made a scenario including Archers?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes; I just started a PBEM of a scenario in which I have a couple of them. No contact as yet.

[Jarmo]

Keep them hidden somewhere behind a hill.

When you see enemy tanks, reverse the archers into combat.

If you're lucky, they will get off a couple of shots before being KO'd themselves.

If an Archer hits and kills a Panther, it was worth it.

[Kestrl]

I've had the same experience with the Archer slow ROF and poor accuracy. I did a QB last night and purchased two veteran Archers and one got knocked out before it could fire a shot and the second knocked out a couple AFV but was destroyed but a light tank.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by moosehead:

My experience is 0-2. They seem to be very slow ROF and poor accuracy. Plus they seem to be like a big magnet for incoming rounds of any kind. I'll never waste my points on them again.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[KiwiJoe]

Ive had good results with archers. Ive knocked out a JagdPanzer IV Lang, Hetzer and a Panther. With a size of 75 if you keep them hull-down they are difficult to hit at range. The only problem is the lack of a hunt command. Having to reverse into postion means you have to judge hull-down by eye. A fraction out and you wont get LOS to the target or will be fully exposed.

I treat it as a 17-pounder AT gun that can relocate after its fired (if it survives . Realy, 99 points for a moblie version of the most powerful allied AT gun is a steal!

[REVS]

My understanding of Archers is that they're not really suited to the small-scale fighting of the CM game system. They're best off in longer-range defensive spots where they can take advantage of their small target status. Plus, their rear-facing armament meant they could withdraw rapidly. In the western desert (I think) they were very useful.

In CMBO, they don't really have a useful role.

My best mates are all German specialists, and I've always liked to be a Russian (just an old left-winger from way back), so I'm hanging out for CM2.

In the meantime, I've amused myself with Allies in CMBO, and I'm afriad items like the Archer aren't that much chop in the close-quarters fighting that you often find in CM scenarios.

Sounds horribly defeatist, but give up on them, unless you have a large game with lots of bare hills as terrain to hide behind.

[Kestrl]

I'm sure someone could design a large scenario where the Archer could take advantage of longer ranges and hills to hide behind. I'm sure fighting in a town or village and having the Archer in a good ambush position where it could get the first shot would help it. The 76 mm main gun has got to be worth something and the only hard part of using the Archer is its rearward facing main gun and no Hunt command.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by REVS:

My understanding of Archers is that they're not really suited to the small-scale fighting of the CM game system. They're best off in longer-range defensive spots where they can take advantage of their small target status. Plus, their rear-facing armament meant they could withdraw rapidly. In the western desert (I think) they were very useful.

In CMBO, they don't really have a useful role.

My best mates are all German specialists, and I've always liked to be a Russian (just an old left-winger from way back), so I'm hanging out for CM2.

In the meantime, I've amused myself with Allies in CMBO, and I'm afriad items like the Archer aren't that much chop in the close-quarters fighting that you often find in CM scenarios.

Sounds horribly defeatist, but give up on them, unless you have a large game with lots of bare hills as terrain to hide behind.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Kestrl]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kestrl:

I'm sure someone could design a large scenario where the Archer could take advantage of longer ranges and hills to hide behind, fighting in a town or village and having the Archer in a good ambush position where it could get the first shot would help it. The 76 mm main gun has got to be worth something and the only hard part of using the Archer is its rearward facing main gun and no Hunt command.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[MikeyD]

If you're having trouble deploying you're archer that's an historically accurate dilemma. the Brits simply hated the beast and it was quickly withdrawn and replaced with towed guns. never did see fighting in the desert.

My 2¢ on deployment. try keeping them as far back as humanly possible. Keep them out of sight, let the infantry be your 'eyes'. When the occassion presents itself (a buttoned Panther occupying itself shooting up your infantry) reverse into position to get off a couple shots. You might want to add a delay to your orders so it'll just have a few seconds exposed during the turn and you can quickly order it back out of sight.

[Kestrl]

I'll do that when i deploy them next time in a QB and see what happens maybe one will survive.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MikeyD:

If you're having trouble deploying you're archer that's an historically accurate dilemma. the Brits simply hated the beast and it was quickly withdrawn and replaced with towed guns. never did see fighting in the desert.

My 2¢ on deployment. try keeping them as far back as humanly possible. Keep them out of sight, let the infantry be your 'eyes'. When the occassion presents itself (a buttoned Panther occupying itself shooting up your infantry) reverse into position to get off a couple shots. You might want to add a delay to your orders so it'll just have a few seconds exposed during the turn and you can quickly order it back out of sight.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Kestrl]

How about a Archer with the 303 cal Bren MG (AA) in CM? I think the Archer needs to close in defense against infantry and light armored vehicles.

[boy_Recon]

I think they're quite handy defensively if you can buy them at Vet or above as they tend to get a good few tungsten rounds. Use them for ambushing at long range, get a few shots off then nip off to another spot. Don't get too attatched to it, but if used carefully it can at least make your opponent twitchy.

BTW ,and I'm going to have to go home and check this, but... IIRC the Archer was not the only WW2 (or thereabouts) AFV with,for whatever godforsaken reason, a fixed rear-firing main armament. Anybody any ideas as to nationality, model, etc?

[Kestrl]

I purchased a veteran Archer and only got one tungsten round but had a few AP rounds.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by boy_Recon:

I think they're quite handy defensively if you can buy them at Vet or above as they tend to get a good few tungsten rounds. Use them for ambushing at long range, get a few shots off then nip off to another spot. Don't get too attatched to it, but if used carefully it can at least make your opponent twitchy.

BTW ,and I'm going to have to go home and check this, but... IIRC the Archer was not the only WW2 (or thereabouts) AFV with,for whatever godforsaken reason, a fixed rear-firing main armament. Anybody any ideas as to nationality, model, etc?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Kestrl]

Has anyone designed a scenario yet with the Archer in it?

[PiggDogg]

Speaking of Archers, two nights ago I played a tcp/ip, random troop selection, heavy woods, 84 meter foggy LOS, QB CMBO with a friend. I was given "two" veteran Archers. This was the first time that I had ever seen the blighters. I really hope that I never see them again.

One stationary Archie killed a Panther A at 80 meters when the cat drove right into the Archie's fire arch. Ok, that was nice, but Lady Luck was on my side. :eek:

Subsequently, both Archies (with 15 plus HE rounds) refused to shoot at 30 to 60 meter German infantry in woods lines despite being given explicit orders to fire at those Germans. :mad:

Also, it was somewhat hard to remember to give the Archies a 'reverse' command to advance. Early in that game, I want an Archie to advance a few meters and I (mistakely) gave it a move command. The fool proceeded to turn away from the Germans and move those few meters facing its naked butt to the Germans. Fortunately, I came to no grief from this, but it was both amusing and irritating. By the way, subsequently, that Archie killed the above mentioned Panther.

The net result is that, in the future, I really do not think that I would ever purchase Archies. A Stuart, a 17 lb AT gun, or (of course) a Firefly (offhand do not know purchase costs & I try to avoid human troop selections like the plague) would seem much better than Archies.

Cheers, Richard :cool:

[lcm1947]

Yeah I agree with most here that say they wouldn't but them again. Like mentioned before they aren't suited for CM. They certainly aren't tank killers and with the 76MM gun I really don't see what the purpose of them were. Not that I ever really used them, in real life that is. But putting a 76MM on what's supposed to be a self propelled gun doesn't make sense to me unless I'm missing something. I mean why a basically tank destroying round in a artillery weapon? :confused:

[Brian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MikeyD:

If you're having trouble deploying you're archer that's an historically accurate dilemma. the Brits simply hated the beast and it was quickly withdrawn and replaced with towed guns. never did see fighting in the desert.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*GULP*, where did you get that idea from?

The Archer was never deployed in the desert because it was developed _after_ fighting there had ceased!

In reality, quite a few AT regiments of the Royal Artillery throughout the NW Europe campiagn were requipped with the beastie and it served in the British Army until well into the 1950's!

Not bad for an AFV which _you_ claim was unpopular and disliked.

In reality, the Archer was an extremely handy SPAT gun. From the user aspect, apparently the worst point about it was that the driver had to vacate his seat every time the weapon fired 'cause if he didn't he was in danger of decapitation. The best tactics for its utilisation are "shoot and scoot" - pick your firing point well and make sure you either have a good line of retreat or you can utilise its low silouhette to hide.

My 2¢ on deployment. try keeping them as far back as humanly possible. Keep them out of sight, let the infantry be your 'eyes'. When the occassion presents itself (a buttoned Panther occupying itself shooting up your infantry) reverse into position to get off a couple shots. You might want to add a delay to your orders so it'll just have a few seconds exposed during the turn and you can quickly order it back out of sight.

[Guest Babra]

I've had pretty good success with them. Kept them at as long a range as I could. Kept them hidden with a good field of fire. Ran like hell after they fired and redeployed to a new firing position.

[Michael Emrys]

I agree with Brian and Babra. None of the Allied TDs are armored heavily enough to slug it out toe to toe with any of the German tanks and win consistently. Shoot and scoot is the watchword.

Put them in some kind of cover and wait for the enemy armor to show itself. Fire for a turn and withdraw, preferably under smoke, to another covered position. Repeat as necessary.

If possible, use them in pairs, leapfrogging as they withdraw. Each covers the other's withdrawal. Always try to move them as soon as they become spotted. Their mobility, along with their firepower, is their greatest asset.

Michael

[Triumvir]

Quite agree with Michael. I've always had good results with Archers, but they require careful placing and a good position. Treat them exactly like an AT gun that can move like blazes.

I've scored a first round kill on a Tiger at 1000m with an Archer and two rounds later, killed a Pz IV; not a bad kill ratio for a 99pt vehicle.

As redwolf says, it's excellent insurance against uberpanzers, and since you have to treat all Allied armour like they're made of glass anyway, the marginal care needed over a normal tank isn't that great.