'faust vs Wasp

[ropey]

My current game has a Wasp causing havoc to three(!) platoons of Heer. The latter have liberal quantities of 'fausts and yet not one has been fired, even as the squads chuck grenades. Why the hell not?

This Wasp seems immune to HMG fire and has just wandered at will through the middle of the 3 plats - is that normal or just lucky?

[Schrullenhaft]

The 'grenades' actually simulate close combat and not necessarily grenades thrown, though that can be a major part of close combat. If your troops are suppressed from the Wasp's flamethrower they may not perform very well in close combat.

The German HMG (MG42) fires a rifle caliber round, so it isn't expected to penetrate the Wasp. I'm not sure what buttoned state the Wasp will be in when it's fired upon or if it is consistently considered buttoned. A significant elevation difference between the HMG (higher) and an Universal Carrier/Wasp (lower) would probably result in casualties to the Wasp crew.

Panzerfaust use in CMBO is kind of hard to explain. Often they won't get used until the target is within half of the particular 'faust's range. I'm not sure if your troops consider the Wasp an armored threat of the type that they would use fausts on (instead choosing to save them for larger armored targets) - at least on a consistent basis when faced with one. I believe the idea here is that the weapons can be very inaccurate and are quite easy to miss with (hence the short range attempts rather than the full range). The other issue is that troops who fire these weapons become exposed or a primary target, so in effect their use requires a morale check (I don't know if such a check is actually coded into the game though) before they're used. A lot of us here have run into situations where a nice clean faust shot existed, but the troops refused to fire. Frustrating, but it does give a feel for the 'imperfections of the battlefield'.

[Guest SnarkerII]

Put an ambush marker and hide some infantry. See if that gives them any bright ideas.

[mike the wino2]

This Wasp seems immune to HMG fire and has just wandered at will through the middle of the 3 plats - is that normal or just lucky?

Well, not so lucky for you it seems. If you have 3 squads try swarming it. I know it's brutal but you trade the slow death for a quick one with honor and glory...if it succeeds.

[Silvio Manuel]

Some ppl say that you're better off NOT manually targeting your squads on the AFV you want your 'fausts to hit...I agree with that though I don't have much exp. so who knows.

Wasps are very fast but...you may want to race a Platoon in w/ squads coming in from diff. angles...1 or more may get burned up, but you should be able to get into faust range. Just make sure that the movment order ends IN cover, in case the Wasp scurries away. Also, smoke can help you get close, whether its from tanks (accurate), on-map mortars (not too accurate) or off-map mortar spotters.

[Redwolf]

The correct cure against Wasps is the 20mm autocannon, be it towed 20mm Flak, 250/9, 234/1, Lynx or Wirbelwind.

They are also more vulnerable against smallarms (MG) fire than it seems. If they are shocked, they cannot fire anymore. While it is hard to kill a Wasp with a MG, you sometimes achive penetrations which are not displayed to you, but which still kill a crewmember and disable the flaming device. If a Wasp retreats and you fear it may return, you might not have to worry.

[ropey]

Arrgh it gets worse - turn 19 and another one has appeared! I have managed to take out his last tank, so if my StuH42 survives a lone PIAT I may get my revenge on the cursed Wasps!

Thanks for the advice about picks - too late now, but maybe next time.

[Ligur]

In such a situation I've seen massed small-arms fire kill a crew member of the wasp very often. I have attempted to avoid the wasp problem by intentionally targeting the little bastartd with a company worth of small arms for a turn or two, achieving that kill with a bit of luck.

Anyway I hate them. Small fast, can throw half your front in disarray by refusing to die.

[ropey]

Originally posted by Ligur:

Anyway I hate them. Small fast, can throw half your front in disarray by refusing to die.

Yeah, and at 57 points a very good buy!

[Col Deadmarsh]

I've tried shooting down at a buttoned Wasp with an MG from 100m away and it did zilch. I think you have to be directly over a buttoned one to kill a crew memeber. The trick is not getting burned to death before that happens.

[Caesar]

Ropey, I wouldn't rely on that StuH to take out a pair of waspes. I have killed SPs with waspes before. They just don't turn fast enough to maintain target lock. Let me assure you, armour bails very fast when flamed

PS I'm a bit of a pyromaniac, they're among my favourite toys

[Tarquelne]

Originally posted by Silvio Manuel:

[QB]Some ppl say that you're better off NOT manually targeting your squads on the AFV you want your 'fausts to hit...I agree with that though I don't have much exp. so who knows.

FWIW: In a recent game, either through brilliant thinking on my part, or gross stupidity (I'm not telling), an M10 and a platoon of my Heer infantry ended a turn with the infantry surrounding the M10, each squad 10-20m from the M10.

During the orders phase I had each squad target the M10. The first second of the next turn every squad fired and hit with 'fausts, causing the M10 to brew up. (I laughed and laughed and laughed....) So in this case manually targeting the AFV worked.

[Boo Radley]

I can't tell you how much I dread seeing a Wasp show up on the battlefield. Invariably, they'll screw up my frontline and scurry back to safety before I can target them with anything worthwhile.

[Andreas]

Hmm, interesting. Fionn once did a Wasp rush on me. They all died faster than the proverbial Gnat in a vat of DDT from infantry fire and fausts. My favourite was one taken out by a platoon HQ at 40m by a grenade/direct assault.

[Redwolf]

I ran some test and have to take my MG recommendation back.

The Wasp is practially invulnerable to Mg42 fire in CMBO, and in addition the HMG teams do not voluntarily target them and even with manual target order they switch to other things after one burst.

20mm is your best bet.

Edit: spelling was too awful

[ June 14, 2002, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[ropey]

I read this too late - a Wasp just toasted my StuH. His 114 points have run with impunity through a company+ of Heer liberally armed with 'fausts and supported by HMGs. Now they have killed a buttoned StuH. If these vehicles were so bloody good in the real world (any experts out there?), why did the allies bother with tanks?

They are small and fast enough that most tanks (let alone SPs) will struggle to target them, and once buttoned they seem immune to infantry. (Except perhaps 'schreks but these were busy with his armour, and I suspect they would also struggle with the size and speed of the Wasp.)

Do most players in a 1000 pointer choose a 20mm as a normal buy?

[Londoner]

No mate, a Puma or/and a 50mm ATG always does the trick for me, never had a wasp give me any trouble. Now a flame Hetzer, thats another story...

[ropey]

Originally posted by Londoner:

No mate, a Puma or/and a 50mm ATG always does the trick for me, never had a wasp give me any trouble. Now a flame Hetzer, thats another story...

Short 75 rules don't allow Flammpanzers but do allow the Wasp (don't know why). Also under these rules an AT gun needs a towing vehicle which puts the price at about the same as a tank or another platoon. Puma is allowed, so perhaps that's the answer?

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by ropey:

Short 75 rules don't allow Flammpanzers but do allow the Wasp (don't know why). Also under these rules an AT gun needs a towing vehicle which puts the price at about the same as a tank or another platoon. Puma is allowed, so perhaps that's the answer?

Neither Fionn short-75 or my Sherman-75 rules say you have to have a towing vehicle. Only the CAL rules on TH do that.

The Puma's cannon is a single-shot weapon in a slow turret. It does have neither the hit probabilities of the autocannon nor does it have the targetting speed to follow the Wasp for several shots.

[ropey]

Originally posted by redwolf:

Sorry it's the CAL rules we're under.

What would others buy in a 1000pt game to supply the 20mm that seems to be required?

My purchases were 1 Coy Reg Heer + 1 Plat Vet Heer, 1 StuH42, 1 Pz IV, 3 'schreks, 2 HMGs, and 3 75mm spotters. (I wouldn't do the same arty again.) I thought this was quite balanced and realistic. (I don't usually play German.)

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by ropey:

[QB]I read this too late - a Wasp just toasted my StuH. His 114 points have run with impunity through a company+ of Heer liberally armed with 'fausts and supported by HMGs. Now they have killed a buttoned StuH. If these vehicles were so bloody good in the real world (any experts out there?), why did the allies bother with tanks?

I'm no expert, but the WASP was used extensively for assaults on enemy defences. Tank battles generally took place at longer ranges than on your CM map - or were intended to, at any rate.

CM is an infantry game primarily, and the Wasp was an effective infantry support weapon.

Not to mention German armour in the "real world" was very much rarer than in CM. Most German infantrymen would have loved to have had the level of armour support our CM troops manage to summon up with the click of a button.

[ropey]

Michael that's kind of my point. Given that tanks were rare, support vehicles would have had a relatively MAJOR role at this level. If they were as effective as CM:BO suggests they would have been used far more often. That they were not suggests that they WEREN'T this effective in real life.

The Kiwis used the Wasps as well, but as you say they were usually in a set-piece battle - positions are softened and pinned by arty, then cleared out by Wasps and other elements. Ours were attached from engineer units but if they were this effective I would have expected our troops to have them as a matter of course!

What do YOU do to counter them?

[Patgod]

i get mad and swipe my fist of death across the table, knocking all the silly wasp counters all over the room.

oh wait, cm isnt played on a tabletop....damn how do i counter those little bastards.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by ropey:

Michael that's kind of my point. Given that tanks were rare, support vehicles would have had a relatively MAJOR role at this level. If they were as effective as CM:BO suggests they would have been used far more often. That they were not suggests that they WEREN'T this effective in real life.

The Kiwis used the Wasps as well, but as you say they were usually in a set-piece battle - positions are softened and pinned by arty, then cleared out by Wasps and other elements. Ours were attached from engineer units but if they were this effective I would have expected our troops to have them as a matter of course!

What do YOU do to counter them?

Stay mobile. I played against 3 or 4 wasps in one scenario in the Invitational. All I could do was keep my troops moving. I lost, but it could have been much worse.

Every infantry battalion in the Canadian Army in NW Europe had Wasp kits as far as I know, so they were not uncommon after Normandy, though as you point out, they were not squandered in patrols, probes, company defensive positions, etc. etc. Then again, I've never read a memoir by a Wasp crewman...Andreas probably has at least two such memoirs in his growing library. They're probably written in Welsh though.