Axis 10 Allies 0

[Spinlock]

Just finished reading John Erickson's excellent book Road to Stalingrad and am getting started with the follow-up to that "Road to Berlin". Absolutely illuminating. CMBB has really sparked my interest in the East Front.

Highly recommend these two books- bit dense- get the version with maps or you'll be lost. Reminds me of reading "War and Peace"... Can never tell the difference between Russian generals and russian towns... gets confusing quick.

Anyway, just wanted to say that there were many highly skilled Russian generals both pre-war and during WWII. Unfortunately, as someone commented, a lot were executed during Stalin's pre-war purges.

Some names that spring to mind include

Tukhachevsky - who was killed in the purges but seemed to have very advanced doctrinal concepts (Deep Battle, cimbined arms, Deep Operation) which were very advanced for their time (early 30's) and would have made him more than a match for the German blitzkrieg.

Zhukov - Deputy Supreme Commander and hero of Moscow '41. He seems to have trashed the Japanese in Mongolia and then from there sped to fame (though being the most famous WWII russian general, is a bit overrated IMHO).

Vasilevskii - Marshal of the SU. Again, in my opinion, one of the best generals of the war. He had great responsibility for the Stalingrad encirclement and Operation saturn. Kharkov was a bit of a blunder though...

Vatutin - Front commander and also planner/executer of Saturn. Was unfortunately wounded and killed before the war ended. Saw action many of the large operations including Kursk.

After reading more (also recommend When Titans Clashed - Glantz, Panzer Battles - F.W. Mellenthin) I have a much more healthy respect for the Red Army as it developed past Barbarossa.

[Panzer Leader]

Originally posted by Foxbat:

That's a bit BLACK and white don't you think, remember that it isn't always winter in russia. The german frontage actually decreased around mid-war. And Guderian had his ass kicked by Katukov's tanks (and he was rapidly running out of tanks anyway), no disrespect for Guderian but his battlefield achievements relied heavily on the enemy defense melting away in front of him.

Hey, watch it, bub!

[Mud]

meditek --

Try "Last Stand as Ebensburg" as the Allies. If you don't win with all that power (although it'll probably be messy...), you truly suck.

The Russian forces take somewhat different tactics, such as the grunts being much worse at AT combat (no 'fausts or 'shreck-equivalents) and overall there being some encouragement to get close (PPSh for SMG infantry, worse optics and generally lower muzzle velocity == less accuracy for the tanks), but they're quite playable.

Oh, and read some Glantz (e.g. "When Titans Clashed") or Erickson (e.g. "The Road to Stalingrad", "The Road to Berlin") for a more accurate view of the war. The "Russian horde" is a myth, probably partly due to German belief that the Russians were incompetent ubermensch who couldn't possibly be winning otherwise; and partly because the Russians developed an excellent skill for concentrating their forces without being detected and thus achieving local superiority that shocked their victims.

[ November 27, 2002, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: Mud ]

[Commissar]

Originally posted by meditek:

I don't understand how the Axis lost 'cos each time I play them I get a major victory!

When I play allies I get marmalised.

My understanding was that the Russians were no great tacticians and in the end it was the winter and sheer weight of numbers that cracked the unprepared Axis. In good weather they were walked over. Seems that they get walked over in any weather in the game.

I feel the fun factor has been seriously diminished by this imbalance but that's only an opinion. I don't feel the urge to stretch my brain conjuring up complex Allied tactics that were virtually never used in order to obtain a marginal victory.

I would much prefer CMBO with the new graphics etc.

meditek

Initially, perhaps. By 1944, definitely not. By late 1943, the Red Army was giving the Germans various painful lessons in combined arms operations that would even surpass the German's early Blitzkrieg. With time, experience, and a Stalin that finally realized that it was in his best interest to let his generals do what they needed to do, the Red Army became a much more sophisticated organization that resembled little of the mess Stalin had created in 1941.

The fact the Germans were constantly suckered by Soviet maskirovka operations helped out tremendously as well. It is myth the Russians always grossly outnumbered the Germans all along the front. Many instances in which the Germans were badly outnumbered resulted from Russians maskirovka operations that got the Germans to move their reserves to where the decisive battle wasn't going to be. Hitler's delusions of military genius also helped out as well.

I am guessing you are playing against the computer in the victories you mentioned. Try playing against a human opponent. I guarantee you it's a much different story than playing a rather predictiable computer AI. Also, I play the Russians all the time in QBs and get major or total victories all the time. Even when the computer is using Tigers or Panthers, I pretty much wipe the floor with the computer opponent. It's really not a big deal again because the computer is so predictable and doesn't handle its assest correctly or in a smart way.

Strong equipment never makes up for lousy tactics or strategy. Play against a human opponent that knows how to use the Russian forces appropriately and you'll be singing a different tune.

[ November 27, 2002, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: Commissar ]

[Nippy]

Try "Last Stand as Ebensburg" as the Allies. If you don't win with all that power (although it'll probably be messy...), you truly suck.

Katukov Stikes Back

The Gate Keepers

Mobile Defense

Message from Gotez

Playing those Battles as the German's will really take the wind out of the Uber-Panzer-philes sails.

[demoss]

Playing those Battles as the German's will really take the wind out of the Uber-Panzer-philes sails. [big Grin]

I'm not so sure regarding Mobile Defense, at least against the AI. Only operation I've gotten a total victory in so far (stopped the Russians cold once the big boys arrived and was counterattacking by the end). It was a nailbiter in the earlier going, though.

That said, I don't agree at all that the Axis are, in general, favored. It just takes a different approach to win with the Russians than to win with the Germans (or the Western Allies, who are more similar to the Germans than to the Russians), and as such it may be a while before the majority of people have figured it out. This ain't your father's CM.

[demoss]

Next some one will be asking "why aren't there any blonds on the battlefield"jez, lol

Next up from Battlefront:

CM: XXX

[Jack Carr]

I hope that this post is appropriate for this thread...anyway, here goes:

I'm not sure exactly what it is that the original poster is experiencing however I have also found it hard to win playing as the Soviets. One thing I try to do is to keep the odds historically accurate. More Russians than Germans in men and material. This gives the Soviet player a better chance. I also play QB's this way in CMBO, more Allies than Axis forces.

It seems to me that early in the war the Russians had better tanks than the Germans but later on this situation was reversed. What hampered the Germans later in the conflict was their lack of numbers of superior vehicles. How many T-34/76's and T-34/85's were built compared to Panthers and Tigers? Big difference! Don't know about anyone else who is playing the Russians but my T-34's go up in flames when they meet up with Panther and Tiger. The T-34/76 actually backs off like they don't have any business being there.

Keep the armor odds anywhere from 4 to 1 through 8 to 1 Russians to Germans. This will give a T-34/76 a chance to get in a side shot at the Panther and Tiger tanks and knock them out. The coming of the T-34/85 spells doom for Hitlers Panzers. As can be seen in the game, Panther and Tiger can no longer afford to trade shots with impunity when they are facing an 85mm.

I think I've said enough and am now prepared to be ripped to shreds by all of the good guys that frequent this wonderful forum. One question I have for the original poster is, What kinds of Soviet defeats are you experiencing?

Remember, especially later in the war, the Germans could not afford to replace knocked out heavy panzers while the Russians replaced a knocked out tank with many more tanks. You get the idea. Many times I have played as the German player and been told at the end of the scenario that I have won a major victory but in my own mind I'm thinking...put the battle into a greater historical context and the outcome is no longer such a "Major Victory" simply because too many men and tanks were lost that can't be replaced.

[Spinlock]

It's been noted elsewhere but worth noting again. When playing QB's you often find that the reverse situation is true for your little battle from what was the historic situation.

In early 1941, before the german's upgrade their weapons the KV-1 tanks spells absolute doom for the German player and T-34's cause mass havoc on the 50mm stubby PzIV and the puny gunned PzIII. In on TCP/IP game I played I lost two platoons of PzIV's and a platoon of Pz38's to one lone KV-1 which sat out of view of my immobile 88s. The most I did was immobilize it- and that was from an airstrike.

Yet in 1941, the Russian armies were running pell-mell to their death and being swallowed up in huge cauldrons of death by the panzers.

Changing over to 1943, the Germans are absolutely crushing my Russians with the Tiger. A lone tiger in a QB on a hill was able to stop my horde of russian infantry and two platoons of T-34's. Even in another engagement with T-34/85's I couldn't get them to engage Tigers (they just ran away to cover).

By this time, the initiative was clearly in the russian's hands and post-Kursk, Army Group Centre was soon to be a gaping hole in the German front as the front collapsed toward Berlin.

Strange huh. It must have to do with the scale of the conflict. Where in my little QB the blitzkrieg can be stopped in its tracks and the russian tide can be turned... if only for an instant.

[Redwolf]

The games where I decisivly won as the Soviets against human opponents are usually based on speed, or mass or both.

Mass: Yelnia stare is reasonably easy to win if you just keep human-waving in a good formation. You make the MGs show up by approching with minimal forces to force them to shoot and you pour in all the other troops like a thick fluid going through a gate, every new line appearng when the other one keps more defenders busy. Meanwhile you blast the area with the tanks. The human-wave command is critical here, you need the morale bonus, at least in 1.00 you needed it. This sceario is probably much easier to win now that the 37mm is less effective and that the panic threshold has been raised.

Speed: people here overlook that the Soviet tanks are not only faster. They are much faster in comparision to most German vehicles the more difficult the ground gets. Given the slow turn rates in CMBB and especially 1.01 you can realistically and reliably flank StuGs, much better than you could e.g. flank Panthers with non-HVSS Shermans.

So overall you have a number of options depending on what the Axis player has. If he goes with turretless StuGs or tank hunters, you flank him. If he goes with real tanks you shot up his infantry out of reach of his tanks. This will i good ground work because you are faster and in bad ground make his vehicles bog sooner or later if he tried to chase you. If he splits up his tanks, you throw everything at one tank. If he goes with an infantry-heavy force you cut the battlefield into isolated cells by preventing his infantry from moving and concentrating and then, while half of your tanks keep the courtains upright you eliminate his cells one by one.

[ November 27, 2002, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Jack Carr]

Spinlock has some excellent points/observations here especially when it comes to QB or pre-packaged battles being the exact opposite of what was going on at that time period in the war. That's why I say, as a sort of rule of thumb, 4 to 1 or 8 to 1 odds Russian to German. You'll soon get a better picture of what the Germans were really up against.

- ALSO -

Another thought...take the rarity factors to heart. I try not to select anything that is over 20% rarity factor when I am able to choose my equipment. Often times this will quickly eliminate many of the German "Big Cats". Get a better feel for what the Germans were really going through. Playing a QB with 10-15 T-34's up against 7 Medium to heavy panzers and accompanying infantry, artillery, etc. will just get your Soviet "Ass kicked". 10-15 T-34's against 2 PZ IV's with accompanying infantry, artillery, etc. will get you closer to the reality of what was happening from late 1943 on.

[Nippy]

I'm not so sure regarding Mobile Defense, at least against the AI. Only operation I've gotten a total victory in so far (stopped the Russians cold once the big boys arrived and was counterattacking by the end). It was a nailbiter in the earlier going, though.

Warning! Possable Spoilers for Mobile Defense below. Avert your eyes!

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I just finised Mobile Defense as the Soviets and all I can say is:

Red Army forever!

German Heavies? Dead!

German HTs, Armored Cars, and AT guns? Dead!

German Infantry? Double Dead!

It only took me 5 out of the 6 battles to reach the end of the map. When the game ended I still had a functional, in not delpeated, rifle/SMG company (with 1/2+ Dozen Lend Lease HTs to haul them around in) with 2 T-34/85 and 1 T-34/76 Platoon(s) in working order.

The Germans had:

- 1 Rifle Squad

And uh...did I mention the rifle squad?

I can only imagine what was going through the German TC's head when he was being flanked on both sides by JS-2s and T-34/85's while a platoon of T-34/76s playing wack-a-mole with him.

I know what went though is head, an 85mm Tungstin round!

[ November 27, 2002, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: Nippy ]

[Grisha]

I only play Soviet and don't have much of a hard time against the Axis AI - so long as I have the tools at hand. Give me a 1941 force w/o much in the way of artillery and I'm going to have troubles.

In fact, here's the result of a recent little QB [click here] I played against the AI. All forces were randomly generated.

[Grisha]

I second what Spinlock and Jack Carr state. The Soviets won from the operational level through the development of operational art, sound planning, recon-intel, and deception, insuring that they would amass anywhere from 5:1 - 16:1 overall tactical numerical superiority. This wasn't as easy as it sounds, since the Soviets only reached overall strategic numerical odds of 3:1 in Oct 1944.

[Walker]

Originally posted by Cpt Kernow:

Remember life for the average russian has/was (and probably still is) [been] a lot lot lot harder than it has been for you septics and us europeans.

I had/have always (and still am) wondered [ing] how to deal with that vexing then&still now problem...

[meditek]

Thank you all and especially the reading refs etc.

I shall revert to the drawing board for a while! As you can see I'm very much a part time CM player. (Mostly I only play on my laptop whilst snowbirding in Florida cos my WW2 flying stuff is too heavy to carry), the thought of actually taking one of you on H2H terrifies me!

I just wonder whether the Axis thrashers here play the game with the same enthusiasm when they play Axis...a Tiger shooting and scooting is pretty deadly! Ok, you do.

Anyway, thanks for all the positive input. Did the Soviets worry about their losses btw?

meditek

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by meditek:

[...]I'm very much a part time CM player.

I heard of those but I couldn't believe they really exist. So you play TacOps the rest of your time?

[meditek]

oops a double

[ November 27, 2002, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: meditek ]

[Cull]

Just finished reading John Erickson's excellent book Road to Stalingrad

Yep, I'm slugging my way through it now, and I've been thinking the whole time about how nice it would be if it had maps! There's a version with maps?! Dammit!

It is dense as all get out. I wish that didn't make me sound so much like a non-grog, but oh well. It is an amazing work, but definitely has the dry, history class feel. I imagine the mapped version would really help to bring it alive a bit.

Anyway, back OT.....I too seem to do better as Germans. I have also gotten the impression that, when matching two "equal" forces, the Germans prevail 9 of 10 times. It may be that I play more as Germans (I just have an affinity for their weapons and vehicles---sorry, they are just so sexy ), and am therefore better with them.

It is interesting to investigate how the player's tactics interact with the game. I can't seem to get the hang of the Soviets---maybe I need to use more "human waves". Oh, and I hate the damn artillery delay times!

I have the feeling that I need to play alot more games before I can form an opinion on how my tactics and playing style work with different sides/force mixes/etc.

[Redwolf]

[ November 27, 2002, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[meditek]

Originally posted by redwolf:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by meditek:

[...]I'm very much a part time CM player.

I heard of those but I couldn't believe they really exist. So you play TacOps the rest of your time? </font>

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by meditek:

Did the Soviets worry about their losses btw?

Oh yes - it's a common mistake by Westerners to think otherwise.

They certainly tried to minimise them as everyone else did.

It's just that their situation often didn't allow them to minimise them as much as Western nations would've or could've.

[meditek]

Originally posted by Nippy:

Try "Last Stand as Ebensburg" as the Allies. If you don't win with all that power (although it'll probably be messy...), you truly suck.

Katukov Stikes Back

The Gate Keepers

Mobile Defense

Message from Gotez

Playing those Battles as the German's will really take the wind out of the Uber-Panzer-philes sails.

Unfortunately I can't find Last Stand and on or two others on my list! Are they DL's somewhere?

Thanks

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by meditek:

Unfortunately I can't find Last Stand and on or two others on my list!

I think he means _The Last Stand_, on your CD.

Eden

[Andreas]

Anybody needing maps to understand Erickson's two superb books does not know enough about the East to be worthy of playing CMBB. There - I said it

Seriously though - I have a very nice quote by Horst Scheibert, OC 6.PR 11 during 'Winterstorm' and the Manstein counteroffensive saying that by 1942 the Soviets had learned enough from the Germans to give back as good as they got. The swirling tank battles on the Akksai river are described as a draw by him, BTW.