Russian infantry attacking - realism or a joke?

[OGSF]

My Russian hordes drop en-masse as soon as they hear the accidental discharge of a Mauser rifle. Orders to "move toward the enemy positions" last about ten paces, then everyone drops and starts rap dancing on their bellies. This is when the enemy positions are supposedly suppressed with mass Maxim area fire and T-34 fire - after any other barrage has pummeled the positions as well.

The Russian infantry are a pain in the butt to play. This might be realistic, but makes for laborious game play. I am quite happy to suppress enemy positions as necessary, but when a single burst of gun fire sends an entire regiment to ground regardless, I begin to wonder what the point is. Especially when it then takes a few moves to get them going again, only to have them drop to the ground as soon as they begin to move the next time.

Am I missing some Russian uber-tactic that I ought to be employing? How do I keep the Ruskies on their feet and advancing??

Anyone had any success with this and how did you do it?

[Wallybob]

Hint: Stalin had NKVD Battalions following the troops with machine guns, and Zampolit (political officers)...advising...the commanders of units.

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by OGSF:

My Russian hordes drop en-masse as soon as they hear the accidental discharge of a Mauser rifle. Orders to "move toward the enemy positions" last about ten paces, then everyone drops and starts rap dancing on their bellies. This is when the enemy positions are supposedly suppressed with mass Maxim area fire and T-34 fire - after any other barrage has pummeled the positions as well.

The Russian infantry are a pain in the butt to play. This might be realistic, but makes for laborious game play. I am quite happy to suppress enemy positions as necessary, but when a single burst of gun fire sends an entire regiment to ground regardless, I begin to wonder what the point is. Especially when it then takes a few moves to get them going again, only to have them drop to the ground as soon as they begin to move the next time.

Am I missing some Russian uber-tactic that I ought to be employing? How do I keep the Ruskies on their feet and advancing??

Anyone had any success with this and how did you do it?

Dyslexic Chicken, I think the use is realistic.

I spent a few PBEM games using green and conscript Volkssturm troops in the attack to get a feel for using crappy infantry. The biggest key is to protect the infantry.

This means youkeep the infantry out of LOS of the enemy for as long as possible, you don't bunch everyone up, and you use the tanks/mortars/MGs to suppress the heck out of enemy positions.

This helps considerably.

Finally, keep in mind the CMBB MGs are a lot better at suppressing fire than the ones in CMBO could ever hope to be.

Steve

[Moon]

Here's a hint: play slower.

Think about it.

Martin

[OGSF]

Originally posted by Moon:

Here's a hint: play slower.

Think about it.

Martin

Yeah, I know. It's going to take some getting used to. :^)

[Berlichtingen]

Try something like this...

ONE platoon human wave forward a short distance. Stop. Next platoon, human wave a short distance. Stop...

[Yeknodathon]

*******SPOILER********

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

Take out the German guns with tanks at long-range, rush the little beggers through the lines and create havoc from the rear (lose a few) and then... "hurrah, hurraaaaaah, hurrrrahhhh" human wave a flank.

I gotta try that with tank-mounted infantry

"hurrrraahhhh"

Yeknod

[ September 02, 2002, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: Yeknodathon ]

[imported_argie]

Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

Try something like this...

ONE platoon human wave forward a short distance. Stop. Next platoon, human wave a short distance. Stop...

IMHO, that is the key. I managed to get a surrender of Germans in turn 22 using that tactic.

[Psyched]

Originally posted by Moon:

Here's a hint: play slower.

Think about it.

Martin

Hmmm. Does this mean be more careful and deliberate on the attack, or that Russian troops have less tendency to break if they are moving slower?

It appears to me that fast commands (i.e., Human Wave and Assault) actually raise morale and make breaking less likely.

Or does morale of a unit have nothing to do with that unit's tendency to be pinned by fire?

Boy, someone smarter than me needs to figure out this game!

[ARRPEEGEE]

Just pay alot of attention to the experience and state of the unit-Don't expect conscripts to do a man's job! Just like in CMBO, the less-experienced units need alot of TLC..Plan around the realistic capabilities of the units, and you'll have no problem,heck..you might even get some new ideas..I was experimenting with operation:get behind the conscripts! worked pretty well. Another good use for 'em is a good quick, tank borne reserve.

[ September 02, 2002, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: mch ]

[Pvt. Ryan]

What they are good for is getting the Germans to reveal their positions so that the tanks can do their work. They are just cannon fodder. More where they came from.

[ARRPEEGEE]

What they are good for is getting the Germans to reveal their positions so that the tanks can do their work. They are just cannon fodder. More where they came from.

Yep! the good ol' fire magnet diversionary tactic is NEVER bad!

[vireo]

You got the Germans to surrender with those lousy Russian troops? I'm impressed...

It seems like movement in general is not as easy in CMBB. Troops get tired quicker, get demoralized easier when they're out of their foxholes, don't rally as quickly even when officers are present, and in general it's a more static game. I haven't been able to pull off some of the more outrageous tactics that worked in CMBO, such as rushing tanks with infantry and having them blow them up with grenades and such. In CMBB you won't get NEAR a tank like that -- your men will either be immediately routed or get exhausted on the run. I have had no success with the tank hunter teams yet...

Maybe this is more realistic, however...And it will make vehicles more useful, like troop carriers and so on...How else can you conduct a fluid defense, move around mobile reserves, etc.?

[Moon]

Psyched, what I meant is - take twice as much time in CMBB to do what you did in CMBO in half as much time. Watch your troops fitness and fatigue levels (fatigues soldiers panic quicker). Run short stretches in 5 turns with 20-30 seconds pauses in between, rather than using 1 turn. Take the time to reorganize your units after the - almost inevitable - disorganization from being pinned down. When pinning down the enemy, do it for 5 turns or 10 instead of 1 or 2. Supppression mounts over time. Use human wave as a surprise on isolated enemy positions, and move into that position using stealth, short runs and as much cover as you can find. Stuff like that. The pace of CMBB is quite different than for CMBO, and that's quite an intended change.

Martin

[Ligur]

I had a nice one with a tank hunter team: A Pak36 started popping away at a green T34 which panicked and roared STRAIGHT THROUGH MY FRONT (a platoon was watching from the foxholes in mild confusion) to get into "cover" from the doorknocker. I used "move" to bring a tank hunter team inside some 20 meters of the now buttoned tank. The next round, the veteran hunters blew it up with a grenade bundle.

Notice: the tank was quite suppressed after 10 hits from a Pak and in a **** state morale wise. Also totally isolated from the Russian forces, about 80 meters behind my front.

About infantry in general: try using "fast" or "withdraw" to pull your troops out of position when they are going to be overrun or receive withering fire... They will DIE. No more fast retreats without solid covering fire or really dense cover, they will be cut down (or panic and continue all the way to the Urals/Berlin). You got to fight to the last or surrender... I can imagine this will bring games to a "natural end" faster, while CM:BB is slower in other ways. Could balance each other nicely.

I'm starting to like it more and more. Of course, I loved it to begin with.

[pathfinder]

I had a consript led platoon of green Sov troops, with 2 tanks with them slowly work up to the west flank. Then when at about 50-100 yards I had them human wave the flag there...while the two tanks suppressed the Germans to the East. ....worked..they got and kept that flag..

now if there had been some infantry with guts in the middle or Eastern Flank I would have won (IMHO) but alas they were fertilizing the AO so all I got was a draw

[Psyched]

Originally posted by Moon:

Psyched, what I meant is - take twice as much time in CMBB to do what you did in CMBO in half as much time. Watch your troops fitness and fatigue levels (fatigues soldiers panic quicker). Run short stretches in 5 turns with 20-30 seconds pauses in between, rather than using 1 turn. Take the time to reorganize your units after the - almost inevitable - disorganization from being pinned down. When pinning down the enemy, do it for 5 turns or 10 instead of 1 or 2. Supppression mounts over time. Use human wave as a surprise on isolated enemy positions, and move into that position using stealth, short runs and as much cover as you can find. Stuff like that. The pace of CMBB is quite different than for CMBO, and that's quite an intended change.

Martin

Thanks, Martin. That's extremely helpful, and now I have a much better idea on how to proceed.

[Andreas]

Konew's advice - and he should know a thing or two about it:

Insert your infantry after you have fire superiority. Only fire superiority allows movement of infantry on the battlefield. If you don't gain it, don't bother trying with your infantry.

Congrats, Comrade, you have just been relieved There is a position available in our penal battalion though, and the Commissar wondered if you considered volunteering.

[OGSF]

Well I am going to have to try again. As far as I can tell, the Russians infantry are rubbish. Two companies routed within 10 yards of the tree line by four misc. "infantry sounds". So the tanks don't even get an ID to shoot at although they were right behind the infantry.

I'd like an NKVP(?) unit right about now.

[Moon]

That's the other thing in CMBB... you gotta use Area Fire a lot more

Martin

[Commissar]

Conscripts are cheap substitutes for trained troops. No surprise, they perform like cheap sustitutes.

I had to use the T-34s for fire supression and then have whatever conscripts I had that stopped pissing in their pants make short hops from one cover or crater to the next. Without the T-34s, I doubt I would have gotten anything done.

[Hensworth]

SPOILER ALERT

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

I just figured that out replaying the tutorial.

I had the Maxims and the green squads raking the treeline in front of the flag while the regulars dodged from crater to crater until I had one squad either side of the (supposed) German position. By then, the German ATG had revealed itself and was easily taken out by the 50mm mortar. This allowed the T34s to rumble up and fire some canister into the trees and that was it.

[ September 02, 2002, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: Sgt_Kelly ]

[ParaBellum]

Already posted on a thread on the CMBO forum:

Ooops, S P O I L E R

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

Today I finished the Jelnia scenario playing the russians. I lost no tank and only about 100 casualties. German casualties were about 200+.

I advanced one company very carefully on each of the flanks while advancing my T-34s in the centre, followed by 3 platoons of infantry. My mortars and Maxims targeted likely enemy positions while my infantry moved forward. In the centre my infantry got pinned by mortars and MG fire but my infantry on the flanks could move slowly forward. I used two platoons in overwatch positions and advanced one. This took quite some time but enemy infantry was spotted pretty fast and got supressed by the combined firepower of the T-34s, mortars, HMGs and the overwatch platoons.

I followed my infantry platoons with company/bataillon HQs to rally broken squads and arrived in fairly good condition at my designated jump-off points.

The actual charge using human wave cost me about 70-80% of my total casualties, but the german defense was broken and most enemy squads were destroyed, I even captured two HMG teams.

The most important point IMO is to advance VERY carefully and allow enough time to rally broken squads and supress the enemy before assaulting. I started my assault at the MLR at about turn 16 and took the last flag at turn 23.

Then the germans surrendered. Score was 81 to 19.

[ September 02, 2002, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: ParaBellum ]

[kmead]

Mild Spoiler

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

I was very pleasantly surprised at how well the Soviet infantry performed. Maybe my pace has always been a bit slow In the tutorial I neglected to follow orders and moved up through the trees along the flank of the Germans. The T34s kept suppressing anyone who popped up and the Maxims and the mortar joined in at will. I lost very few men and didn't lose a tank to the 37 even though it hit many times.

[ParaBellum]

Kmead, the tutorial is IMO quite easy as the russians. The germans are weak and don't have HMGs or mortars. And your russians don't have to cover lots of open gound and are quite experienced (at least compared to the bunch of hamster you get to command in the Jelnia scenario). It gets a little bit more difficult in the Jelnia scenario, but it's still lots of fun, although one has to change his playing style a bit from CMBO.

At least that was my experience.