Some Combat Mission Myths

[Moon]

Great! Now get back where you came from, Mensch - shouldn't you being doing something else with your spare time right now?

[Slapdragon]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Moon:

Great! Now get back where you came from, Mensch - shouldn't you being doing something else with your spare time right now? <hr></blockquote>

Naw, Mensch usually can only do that once a day. Besides, his doctor said he would go blind if he was not careful.

[mensch]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

Naw, Mensch usually can only do that once a day. Besides, his doctor said he would go blind if he was not careful.<hr></blockquote>

Oh you two ar funny... wait, HAR HAR.

ya like trying to get my system to work at home so I CAN do things damn system error type 2s!!

[jshandorf]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Andreas:

3) The AI is crap on the attack

While it is only as good as a semi-competent human player at its very best, I found that it can be surprisingly tough and I think that the 'Ai-style' will lend itself very well to early GPW fighting. During the weekend I tested this, and it did quite well.

<hr></blockquote>

Nahhhh, the AI sucks on attack. I watched a friend of mine last night playing one of the bundled scenarios, can't remember which one, but it said that the human should play as the Germans. So he did. Well, he basically hit "GO" for 30 turns and wiped out the attacking Americans with only sustaining 4 casualties. One 88mm pillbox, IIRC, took out 8 vehicles alone. The computer just kept rushing them forward.

I have seen this same thing when I play the computer and have it attack. The AI just sucks on the attack, but hey, that is why I only play the game PBEM or TCP/IP. Given the choice I would always rather play humans.

Jeff

[wes hays]

Mensch - that has to be the closest that the game will come to "real" bocage. I tried it on a scenario, and it works quite well. Not a lot of fun to go through.

[JasonC]

I think if you use the height and trees, you don't need the bocage terrain type at all. Using it, you get problems. One, it is too difficult for infantry to cross, and two, nobody can see through it, and three, if you stand right next to it to try to see anything, you are in open ground and run when fired on (a tac AI limitation).

Whereas, just a line of scattered trees or woods one tile wide, 1 height level above the surrounding fields, does not have these problems. It is relatively easy to use as defensive terrain, but the subtle aspects come in with techniques that use the height "berm" to break LOS, or to "segment" engagements (many on few situations, seperating point from overwatch, etc). It makes bocage defense tactics a variant of reverse slope tactics, in effect.

[WineCape]

Another Combat Mission myth:

"If you beat WineCape in PBEM he will NOT part with his beloved cellared wine to said winner!

[WineCape]

Another Combat Mission myth:

"If you beat WineCape in PBEM he will NOT part with his beloved cellared wine to said winner!

[jshandorf]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by WineCape:

Another Combat Mission myth:

"If you beat WineCape in PBEM he will NOT part with his beloved cellared wine to said winner!

<hr></blockquote>

I'm feeling thuuuuuuursty... send me a setup. Plus the guys under the bridge expect me to bring something to our next meeting.

Send setup to: jshandorf@mediaone.net

Gurgle, gurgle

Jeff

[Kingfish]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by WineCape:

Another Combat Mission myth:

"If you beat WineCape in PBEM he will NOT part with his beloved cellared wine to said winner!

<hr></blockquote>

Hey, quit yer grape stompin' and send me a turn. I love watching your veteran Panthers retreating from my British rifle squads.

[Holdit]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Andreas:

1) CMBO does not handle city battles well - how will it cope with Stalingrad?

<hr></blockquote>

Plug alert!

Test it with this offering from the Senario Depot:

Download Stalingrad Map

[WineCape]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Kingfish:

Hey, quit yer grape stompin' and send me a turn. I love watching your veteran Panthers retreating from my British rifle squads.<hr></blockquote>

It's called a "fighting retreat" and it is not a myth, the fighting part at least. Sort of a "come into my parlour said the spider" scenario...

I've send the turn on 12 Jan KingFish, obviously you have not received it - check mailbox.

[Holdit]

Great work, Mensch. I've just tried out your technique like this:

Scattered trees x x x x x x x x x xx

Bocage (elevated)-----------------------

Road =======================

Bocage (elevated)-----------------------

Scattered trees x x x x x x x x x xx

The road tiles are alternate between road-with-scattered trees and road-with-woods and the result looks good.

Thanks.

Paul

[Berlichtingen]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Holdit:

Great work, Mensch. I've just tried out your technique like this:

Scattered trees x x x x x x x x x xx

Bocage (elevated)-----------------------

Road =======================

Bocage (elevated)-----------------------

Scattered trees x x x x x x x x x xx

The road tiles are alternate between road-with-scattered trees and road-with-woods and the result looks good.

Thanks.

Paul<hr></blockquote>

Now, break up both the scattered trees and the bocage with woods and, in the case of bocage, stone walls. Perhaps a little brush as well. Also, don't forget to add the occasional scattered tree tile in the middle of your fields... oh, and vary your fields between wheat, brush and open

[Maastrictian]

Something I haven't heard mentioned (which surprises the heck out of me with all these people who are smarter than me posting ) is making bocage diagonal rather than horizontal/vertical. I'm talking something like this:

\....

\\...field

\\\..

.\\\.

..\\\bocage (elivated)

...\\road (in trees/woods)

....\bocage (elivated)

The advantage of this is that, because of the way the tiles are drawn, the bocage ends up closer, perhaps 50% closer, I'm not sure, to the road than otherwise possible. Combined with road in woods this creates a rather dense effect. Not as dense are real bocage, but not bad either.

I'd post a screen shot, but you'd all laugh at my mod-less terrain

--Chris

[Maastrictian]

More specifically, if the road width in meters is r then a horizontal bocage set up has a distance of (20 - r/2) meters between the road edge and the bocage. A diagonal set up has a distance of about (14 - r/2) meters between the road edge and the bocage. So not a giant difference, but something.

--Chris

[Holdit]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

Now, break up both the scattered trees and the bocage with woods and, in the case of bocage, stone walls.<hr></blockquote>

Brilliant! It looks...anarchic. Much more natural-looking and solves some of the other problems too.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>

Also, don't forget to add the occasional scattered tree tile in the middle of your fields... oh, and vary your fields between wheat, brush and open <hr></blockquote>

That's already SOP. Apart from the fields that contain just open ground. Must rememebr that. Thanks.

Another thing I like to do is vary elevations with fields - let the m roll a little.

Regards,

Paul

[Joel]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ASL Veteran:

[QB]

A map like the 'Walk in Paris' map is a perfect illustration of this problem. I think an attacker would find city fighting much more difficult if the buildings were larger or if you could pass from one building to another.

QB]<hr></blockquote>

ASLVet,

I would like to suggest you go take a walk on the rue de Rivoli, where the scenario takes place, just like I did yesterday.

If you did, or if you had lived in Paris for 10 years like I did, you would know that most buildings facing the Tuileries gardens are rarely longer than 20m, and you would also realize that the outerwalls (stoneblocks about 50cm thick) are doubled, ie each building has its own outerwall, making the separation between 2 buildings at the very least one good meter of stone. Now, you could try taking your pocketknife and dig a hole between buildings, and you would understand that stone is not prone to that kind of operation.

You could also try to blow a hole in the outerwalls, and then you would realize that this operation requires explosives, skill, and time, three components not available to every German squad in the Heer by 1944, and certainly not in Paris in August 44.

You could also witness that there is often no link between 2 adjacent buildings, so that if a squad had the silly idea to set up a firing position in such a building, it would be trapped as soon as it would be spotted by a superior force.

After that, I would be happy to read your educated views about how to recreate this particular area in CMBO.

Joël

[Joel]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mensch:

one could add one more factor to the Bocage (if this is your taste in blocking absolute visibility, add a forest line beside the bocage.

<hr></blockquote>

Mensch,

Nice idea, but you end up with basically a 40 meters wide bocage hedgerow, which will mess up the scaling of your map, especially given the small size of fields in bocage areas.

Is the bocage tile realy useful, in your "advanced more realistic placement" ?

Woundn't you get the same effect in terms of movement and line of sight if you put the tile of woods directly on the "berm" ?

Cheers,

Joël

[ASL Veteran]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Joel:

ASLVet,

I would like to suggest you go take a walk on the rue de Rivoli, where the scenario takes place, just like I did yesterday.

If you did, or if you had lived in Paris for 10 years like I did, you would know that most buildings facing the Tuileries gardens are rarely longer than 20m, and you would also realize that the outerwalls (stoneblocks about 50cm thick) are doubled, ie each building has its own outerwall, making the separation between 2 buildings at the very least one good meter of stone. Now, you could try taking your pocketknife and dig a hole between buildings, and you would understand that stone is not prone to that kind of operation.

You could also try to blow a hole in the outerwalls, and then you would realize that this operation requires explosives, skill, and time, three components not available to every German squad in the Heer by 1944, and certainly not in Paris in August 44.

You could also witness that there is often no link between 2 adjacent buildings, so that if a squad had the silly idea to set up a firing position in such a building, it would be trapped as soon as it would be spotted by a superior force.

After that, I would be happy to read your educated views about how to recreate this particular area in CMBO.

Joël<hr></blockquote>

Your knowledge and experience of Paris is quite impressive - I consider myself humbled! I actually have been to Paris one time - I spent a week there in 1984 (not that it makes any difference to the point of this discussion because that scenario was being used as a visual aide) You will note that I said that the map is a good example of what I was referring to - indicating that the building layout of that scenario was what I was using to help illustrate the point that I was making (just in case anyone was unclear and needed a visual aid).

There can be room in CM for both 'pass through' buildings and 'non pass through' buildings so a designer can use whatever is appropriate - unless it is your 'educated opinion' that every single building in Europe from London to Moscow is designed exactly like the buildings in that specific spot in Paris.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>You could also try to blow a hole in the outerwalls, and then you would realize that this operation requires explosives, skill, and time, three components not available to every German squad in the Heer by 1944, and certainly not in Paris in August 44.<hr></blockquote>

Yes, well that may very well be true, but if I was a German soldier preparing to fight in a city environment perhaps you might agree that it would be possible for someone who doesn't feel that it is a good time to die with the Fuhrer's name on his lips to give himself an escape route. Currently it is impossible for such an escape route to exist under any circumstances.

I also think that it may be possible - no a certainty - that there are at least one or two buildings located somewhere in Europe that are larger than 20 meters square. Yes, I am actually quite certain of that because I have seen a few with my own eyes.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>

After that, I would be happy to read your educated views about how to recreate this particular area in CMBO.

<hr></blockquote>

I personally don't care if you read my views or not - or whether you agree with them or not. My opinions are my own - I speak for no one but myself. Others are free to agree, disagree, or debate as they choose. If they make a point that is relevant to the discussion then I will address the point on its merits.

[mensch]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Joel:

Mensch,

Nice idea, but you end up with basically a 40 meters wide bocage hedgerow, which will mess up the scaling of your map, especially given the small size of fields in bocage areas.

Is the bocage tile realy useful, in your "advanced more realistic placement" ?

Woundn't you get the same effect in terms of movement and line of sight if you put the tile of woods directly on the "berm" ?

Cheers,

Joël<hr></blockquote>

Joël, like I said you are limited to what BTS coded and that is 20m x 20m tiles (I can't do anything about that) small maps a problem huh? have you looked at my byte battle (real small but still has a good effect.

I don't do trees either since one thing Bocage I do like in the game it take forever to go through! which after seeing the Bocage in France, I would have to agree... that stuff is thicker then any silly (yes silly) Bire (sp?) patch in the good US of A.

Putting woods are simply to put making a mockery of the Bockage troops waltz through it like Grandma on a sunday stroll through central park packing a 44 Magnum.

Joël, in some places (which was most) I couldn't even put my arm though the stuff, without resorting to pulling the stuff appart (which would be damn hard work) or picking up some sharp axe/knife/daisy cutter to clear the stuff.

[JasonC]

If you are worried that just a wooded berm seems too easy to cross rapidly when unopposed, you can still use the 1-tile width wooded berm, and then add a wire marker along the line of the bocage. The benefit of using wire instead of the bocage terrain type is it can be placed on top of a woods tile, thus leaving the whole only 1 tile wide, instead of 3. It will block movement well enough. You can "padlock" the wire set up.

Personally, I think this might be overkill, but I think the bocage terrain type is overkill too, and in addition the strips of open ground right next to it make it indefensible as a tactical feature. If you can see through it, you run whenever you take fire, since the tac AI thinks you are in "open ground". If you are away from the open ground strips hard coded into the bocage tile, then you can't see through it.

Wooded berms do not have this problem, and still have the essential ability to break LOS by a slight withdrawl, then fire point-blank at enemies moving right next to the berm on the other side. So I use just wooded berms for bocage, and I don't sweat the movement rate across them if there aren't defenders present to shoot up and break the crossers. If you think more of a movement obstacle is needed though, you can add it to wooded berms with wire.

[Joel]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mensch:

I don't do trees either since one thing Bocage I do like in the game it take forever to go through! which after seeing the Bocage in France, I would have to agree... that stuff is thicker then any silly (yes silly) Bire (sp?) patch in the good US of A.

<hr></blockquote>

Mensch, you're right, movement speed through bocage is indeed an important factor.

I guess I just wanted to get rid of the bocage tile because I feel it generally ruins the look of any map it's on!

I DLed your "Bocage to St-Lô" scenario and indeed it works well, except for the open ground terrain between the trees siding the road and the bocage (yes, I know we are limited to 20m x 20m tiles ). This side effect is somehow limited when roads are "diagonal" though.

I am not sure how your approach would work with large maps, where field size, distance between villages, and space between houses or roads would all have to be consistant.

Well actually I guess it would work in terms of terrain effects, but I'm afraid the map would look strange with 5-tiles-wide roads!

Don't you think Jason's approach with [barbed Wire + "Wooded Berms"] is interesting as well ?

Joël

[Joel]

ASL

I have pondered wether it was worth answering your post...

Since you essentially relied on making up things I didn't write (like all buildings in Europe are as I described, or no building in Europe is more than 20m wide, etc) just for the sake of putting in some sarcastics comments, I ended up deciding it was not worth any time.

Bye,

Joël

[manchildstein (ii)]

ok... i desing mostly huge scenarios.

i must say that the ai is lacking here.

first of all, even in small battles, it appears to me that the ai on the attack always leads with tanks.

this would be fine if they were portraying an armored breakthough and tried to move fast through the enemy, but the ai's tanks generally move normally or hunt, with the infantry _behind_ them. this tends to lead to the tanks getting chewed and the infantry then attempting to finish the attack without tank support.

ok, however arguable that might be, the larger problem is in scenarios with something like 50 or more ai-controlled vehicles.

the ai is ok with 2 or 3 vehicles, but when you get 10 or 15 in one area, the ai will send them all to one small spot, or so it would appear.

time after time in these scenarios i've come across ai vehicles on both attack and defense, seemingly clustered around one tiny spot, be it a flag or no. they're all facing different directions too! it's a real combat mission 'cluster you know what.'

sometimes the ai heads for a 100 point flag with 4 or 5 tanks, and clusters there, when there is a heavy battle across the way where there are 10 or 20 400-point flags.

it's tough to design a huge vehicle battle with the ai because of this. you have to almost play hotseat and 'substitute' for the ai by making a bunch of group moves for the 'computer player.'

in these huge scenarios, a bunch of rudimentary group moves is better than what the ai comes up with.

the ai also needs to start moving infantry fast. it never does this from what i've seen.

it need not lead with tanks, unless it has overhwhelming firepower and infantry riding.

i posted this idea before but received no response.

the scenario designer should be able to make some rudimentary ai settings in order to assist the ai in playing the scenario properly.

the victory flags need to be generic, and the scenario designer able to set their point value.

if the coding were done so the ai took its cues from 'scenario designer input' then this game would really rock!

andy