France 1940 - Allied armor and the real German edge

[Lars]

Originally posted by Olle Petersson:

How come USA has their subs crewed by potential war criminals?

Who does Sweden put on their boats?

Choir boys?

[imported_Wildman]

Originally posted by Terence:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Olle Petersson:

Maybe its not a US law, seeing as we've already dropped two nuclear weapons?</font>

As someone who is responsible for Nuclear Weapons, let me shine a little personal light on this now Off Topic thread.

1. There is no international or national law prohibiting the use of nuclear weapons. All existing treaties do not speak to the USE of nuclear weapons, but to the total number of weapons and delivery systems. It would be completely legal to drop a nuke if the proper National Command Authority issued it.

2. As to the swearing of personal loyalty to the Furher. That may have actually had some sort of force for the General Staff, mostly of Prussian decent. But to assume that that corporal carried out an order because of an oath to some leader he's never met. NO WAY! He fought and died for the same reason as every other nationality did. For the guys in his squad/platoon/company and because it was either kill or be killed. Let's not get too academic about why someone follows orders. Part is training, part is nationalism, part is fear of consequences, but mostly it doing what you have to do to get through the day and go home!

[Brian]

Originally posted by Wildman:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Terence:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Olle Petersson:

Maybe its not a US law, seeing as we've already dropped two nuclear weapons?</font>

As someone who is responsible for Nuclear Weapons, let me shine a little personal light on this now Off Topic thread.

1. There is no international or national law prohibiting the use of nuclear weapons. All existing treaties do not speak to the USE of nuclear weapons, but to the total number of weapons and delivery systems. It would be completely legal to drop a nuke if the proper National Command Authority issued it.

</font>

[Steiner14]

Yes, yes how true: the victors are always right.

To add my 2 cents: ofcourse dropping nuclear bombs is allowed - but it is forbidden to use them agains civilians.

So if we take the rules and "laws" invented by the victors (not the NATIONS of the allies, the people who followed honestly the call of their governments and gave their life for the declared ideas, were the winners - the white nations in common are the losers as we can see 50 years later even clearer, of maybe the last big eruption of white man's will to survive) and even forget two of the most important principles in law,

1. that there's no penalty without existing law

2. the subject of each law has to be defined. What this means is, that you can't take i.e. "humanity" into law, without defining what "humanity" is.

If you think that's easy - it isn't. And, big surprise!, it NEVER has been done. Words like humanity in laws, are classical rubber-paragraphs that are colliding with the fundamental principles of legal-state.

But even if we forget these two aspects, the use of nuclear bombs against the two civilian cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki against an for capitulation already negotion-ready enemy, was a 1st class war crime.

If the tribunal at Nürnberg would have judged it's inventors with the same principles they used against the loser, Roosevelt (nuclear-weapons against civilians, terror-war with bombs against civilian-cities behind the front, with the explicit target, not to fight enemy troops, but to destroy the morale of the people), Churchill (starting this terror-war; 5 months(!) before the first german bomb was dropped against GreatBritain (industrial- & arms-city Coventry),and after at least 2 official declarations of the 3rd Reich, to stop this terror-attacks against pure civilian-cities with no troops or war-important industry, otherwise the Reich will be forced to bomb british cities, germany bombed cities in England, too) and last but not least, Stalin (attack-war against Finland, attack-war and occupation of the baltic states and Poland, planning an attack-war against Germany, that only was balked by the preventive-attack of Germany directly into the prepagation-areas of more than 4 million soldiers close to german-border with - for example - no maps of Russia, but tons of maps of germany, where on the first day of operation Barbarossa, nearly 50% of the russion air-force was destroyed (2000 planes in 24hours!) on earth, already fueled and placed in rows on the front airfields and 3 million(!) prisoners of regular fighting troops were made during first 4 weeks of operation Barbarossa), these three politicians also were guilty.

every real judge, that would have taken a look at the map of USSR, would have seen that these proven but withhelded FACTS had been possible under only one situation: the weakest point of time of each army: the preparing for attack).

But a real court would have been suicide for those forces behind the scenes, who lied the French, English, Canadian, Australian and US nations into the war.

They had used all their power of manipulation via mass-media and financial-influence in the plutocraties, called "democraties", to get rid of the biggest threatening of the interests-system, since the invention of interests and now, 5 seconds before 12, after the french-revolution, the established communistic-system and two won world-wars, they sould allow the former threatening system, to explain not only to the germans, also to the whole world, how the interests-system slaves the whole world?

Should they really allow them to say, that the US-president is only a marionett for the international-capital?

Should they allow them to call the men behind the scenes by their names and the dependencies of the US-presidents on the few people with 90% of the capital and the connections between freemasonry and international-capital?

Should the loser be allowed to tell the world, that the raid on Pearl-Harbour, was no raid? That the President of the UnitedStates knew several hours before, due to the decoded japanese messages, that his soldiers will become attacked but he white house refused to warn the fleet, to come over the war-declaration agains Japan into the war against Germany?

3 (6) years at war, to give afterwards the loser a chance to tell his point of view?

The much better thing to do: like Stalin already said, "who controls Germany, controls Europe".

But there was a big problem: the germans had learned to look behind the mask of the "democracies" with their "free" mass media - not controlled by governmental power, but with a much better solution (for the capital): controlled by the strongest power in the plutocratic world: MONEY - and they already knew they are as democracies comouflaged plutocraties.

They also knew that Marxism/Communism is only the other side of the same medal of the OneWorld strategists.

Who believes in random, that the US government was the first government which officially accepted the USSR in 1918, despite the already well known killing of million russians and the elimination of the whole elite and that US capital was the source for the first 5-year-plan (who sees connections to the lend-and-lease act, which gave Stalin material in a size equal to germany's complete armament of the years 41'-43').

You can beat the enemy with weapons, but nevertheless, you need to win the believe in the new system:

solution: the system helps the loser to get rid of the empty stomach, you help him to get rid of the "dictatorship", you give the individual "freedom", and all you want is an economical-system that creates interests - a genius plan but not enough for an enemy, that already knew about those principles.

So you need to destroy the believe in the enemy's own nation and culture - then he wants automatically to get rid of his old "dark" & "bad" identity and is open-minded for the "new" ideas:

the biggest and monstrous crime in german history was waiting to be told to everyone!

German civilians were lead through the concentration camps and - ofcourse were shocked. But the media withholded, that after only a few weeks of a desease like dysentery or cholera, everybody looks like those people - nobody said, that the destruction of the chemical industry by the terror-war of the two high-degree-freemasonrys Mr. Churchill and Mr. Roosevelt, made it impossible to produce the necessary medicines.

My grandfather weighted 94 pounds, when he returned home from the russian-front. He would have been a good model for the propaganda-films also.

And in 1948, suddenly the USSR opened Auschwitz for the international press. 6 million jews were gassed. 4 millions in Auschwitz.

Ask an historian today, where is the memory-blackboard gone, that stated 4 million jews were killed in Auschwitz.

Well, it's the same board, where the pope kneeled in front.

No court that ever prooved if it is was even possible to be done, like the witnesses told.

But nevertheless in europe you're put into jail for years, if you don't believe in and say it loud.

Nowadays germany has more prisioners due to have said a wrong opinion, than the former German Democratic Republic ever!

The plan succeded but i'm sure, the time of the plutocraties in the western world is running out in the next 10 years.

Ofcourse, the people behind the scenes know that, that nothing can grow forever and the world's economical system is satiated.

The only hope for the OneWorld strategists is, to make another big war (put the capital into armament) and win (afterwards they have even more influence and capital).

Since the 11.9. everybody can observe, how the system is preparing for the next war.

This time, we Germans will be in the boat that brings "freedom" and "peace".

But i wouldn't bet, that the lie will win once again.

[ June 15, 2002, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: Steiner14 ]

[Wisbech_lad]

Steiner 14

Those forces behind the scenes, ooh, please tell us more.

As a western plutocrat myself, I can't wait. Is it the Jews/ Masons/ Trilateral Commission/ illuminati/ UN/ Gnomes of Zurich that are doing all this to us?

Oh yes. Hi Mum

[Steiner14]

You are a plutocrat - hehehe!

How comes that "misunderstanding"? You think you know a lot about german history/ WWII, but you don't even know what plutocratic means?

Instead polemic, please show everybody/me that the arguments/facts i brought are wrong.

Or don't you have any?

[Keke]

Originally posted by Steiner14:

I mean that discipline was one of the main targets in german training, like in whole german culture.

But discipline was not only focused on commands - it was much more a way of seeing what life is for: the individual is not that important - what really counts is the whole community and that the individuum is ready to die, when it is necessary, that the nation can live.

Talking about discipline, Finnish soldiers (yes, the uberfinns) were amazed by the discipline and discipline measures of German troops. FE When German 122nd infantry division was defending Viipurinlahti on July 1944, repulsing Soviet attacks together with Finnish troops, both German and Finnish were not allowed to use any civilian property, although the owners had been evacuated. Finnish troops anyway used to gather potatos from the cultivated grounds, and so, following the example, did some Germans. That is until one Hauptmann was caught doing it, after which he was demoted to infantryman status and sent away to some penal unit!

[Wisbech_lad]

Steiner 14. Uhm, yes, I do know what plutocratic means. I live in Hong Kong (which is very much a plutocracy) and I happen to be part of that system. Having money is nice.

As for errors in your facts/ arguments, here is one.

- USA was the first to recognise the Provisional Russian government in 1917 (Kerensky's government). However, when Lenin's Bolsheviks took power, the USA withdrew this recognition, and didn't then recognise the USSR goverment until 1933.

Keke. Agreed, the Germans Army had very strict discipline measures. It is estimated that 10-15,000 firing squads took place in the German army, and an unknown number of battlefield executions.

[JasonC]

Will somebody please get these Nazis nuts off of my once-interesting thread about tank radios? I thought this was a moderated forum precisely to stomp out this sort of thing.

Yes, I know others already hijacked it to turn it into a thread about sight pictures, but while that missed the point about an advantage that grows with engagement size and was transitory over the course of the whole war, at least it was still about an issue tactical wargamers want to model.

[Madmatt]

Steiner 14, I don't know what sort of agenda you keep but your post is right on the edge of being "actionable".I have heard all the BS before and I am sure I will hear it again but thats the great thing about running this Forum. I DONT HAVE TO!

I don't have time for this sort of crap today so take your theories somewhere else or be my guest and post more and I will happily ban you.

Your choice.

Madmatt

[Jarmo]

There's a CM field test that could be done about this "german communication advantage" hypothesis.

Not perfect of course..

One player would take, say 15 Lynxes and 15 Hotchkisses to simulate early german armour.

The second player would take 20 british Stuarts and 20 US M8 Howitzer carriers.

The allied player would play using Franko's Iron Man rules. (Only level 1 view, no scrolling around the map, just checking units with + and -

German player would play normally.

[Steiner14]

Ok Madmatt, i give way to the force.

Nevertheless it's not crap what i wrote, unless it's proven to be wrong.

But i also accept, this has nothing more in common with the thread and forum topic.

Sorry for THAT.

Steiner14

[ June 15, 2002, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: Steiner14 ]

[JasonC]

Thank you Madmatt.

Jarmo, that sounds very interesting. I would suggest slightly different forces, though. Stuarts won't work. You may not realize it, but they are armored enough to be practically invunerable to the early guns on the Lynx and Hotchkiss.

I'd recommend using the Brits, with Daimler ACs for the light tanks and Centaurs with no HEAT ammo to simulate super-heavies light the Char B. Might also use Carriers to simulate MG main armament lights, but in a pure armor fight there is little need for those.

On the other side, Lynx and Hotchkiss are OK (although the Hotchkiss is worse than the German 37mm tanks were). Might also add 234/4 75mm armored cars to simulate early Pz IVs. (The armor and gun are about right). No HEAT for them either. You might think the ACs are way too fast, but off road they aren't too bad.

Then as you say require the Brits to use Franko's rules. Perhaps also require them to be buttoned throughout. Also, the Brits might be green and the Germans regular quality.

Maybe - 3 Centaurs, 12 Daimlers against 10 Lynx, 5 Hotchkiss, and 5 75mm PSWs. That gives the Germans 4:3 vehicle odds, top down intel, and unbuttoned sighting. The Brits/French get better guns, and 3 beasties invunerable from the front and tough even from side or rear - but with only level 1 sighting and buttoned up. And green.

I am a bit worried about using the Hotchkiss actually. It is slow, slow turret, and low ROF. Doesn't really fit the aspects we want to model, which are factors *besides* gun and armor. Maybe just extra Lynx would be better (15 of them). The point odds wind up 1185 to 1011, or about 7 to 6.

That could be a really good simulation. Make the terrain light or moderate trees, moderate hills, farmland. A pretty big map, so it isn't easy to know where the enemy is just by map edges. To get both Centaurs and PSW-4s in the same battle you have to fiddle the dates (Centaurs are June only, PSW-4s show up in July).

Jarmo, if you'd be willing to fight that one out with me, I'd be very interested. Obviously others are encouraged to try it as well.

[ June 16, 2002, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[JonS]

Originally posted by JasonC:

I am a bit worried about using the Hotchkiss actually. It is slow, slow turret, and low ROF. Doesn't really fit the aspects we want to model, which are factors *besides* gun and armor.

If you're worried about factors *besides* gun and armour, then it shouldn't matter. In fact, if that is the case you don't even need to worry about trying to simulate the early war tanks. You could use a mix of Shermans and Pershings vs PzIII or IV, for example, and then apply the rules that are supposed to model the thing your interested in: Frankos rules vs no limit, green vs reg, buttoned vs unbuttoned, etc

Regards

JonS

[Andreas]

Or you could just wait until CMBB is out - it appears this is not something that needs resolving now.

[JasonC]

Wanting to model the factors besides gun and armor does not mean not wanting to model guns and armor. It means wanting in addition to get things like turret speeds, rate of fire, cross country mobility, etc, reasonably close to right. Because the Allied tanks were on average better in gun-armor terms, while the German ones were on average better in those other attributes. That makes using the Hotchkiss in place of a Pz III-37mm or Pz38t problematic. That is why I'd stick with 15 Pz IIs and 5 PSW-234/4s (without HEAT) against 12 Daimlers and 3 Centaurs (also without HEAT).

PS, to Andreas - resolving, perhaps not. Investigating, certainly. A lot of military noodling turns on the diagnosis of the "rate determining step" in May 1940. Preventable weakness vs. irresistible doctrine etc. If most of the effect was radios, larger turrets, and reasonably sensible unit TOEs to get combined arms effects, against nothing, then trying to duplicate anything like it without those weaknesses on the enemy side (as though it were all due to the doctrinal brillance of offensive maneuver by armor) would not be very promising.

[ June 19, 2002, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[JasonC]

I tried a smaller version against the AI, letting its cluelessness and green quality stand in for Ironman rules. I gave it 2 centaurs and 6 daimlers against 2 PSW234-4s and 8 Pz IIs. I won with half my force alive, though the remaining PSW was also immobilized. The fight was illuminating for what did and did not matter (more on that below).

I didn't place the flags anywhere sensible, and as a result the AI "laagered" in one corner where they were. They blocked the main road toward them with one centaur, the other nearby covering a slightly different area. The daimlers were in low ground nearby and tended to bunch up.

Centaur armor certainly mattered. They were tough to take out. One eventually succumbed to cumulative damage, being abandoned after gun and track hits both disarmed and immobilized it. The other was KOed by a Pz II running onto its flank at about 60 meters range, after being immobilized.

The daimlers seemed more threatening at first, however. See, the centaurs were short legged beasties. Their low muzzle velocity, small targets, and keeping the Panzers moving put the hit probabilities in the single digits at long range. I could tell because my PSWs weren't any better, recording 2% hit probabilities at 1000m and 6% around 600m (with some intervening trees on the long LOS lines, to be sure).

The daimlers were accurate enough at range to be a serious danger, even to moving Pz IIs. That 2 lber is an accurate gun. They KOed 2 Pz IIs and 1 of the PSWs at ranges from 1000m to about 700m.

But they were also brittle, and the 20mm on the Pz II super accurate with its high rate of fire. Once I had a number of Pz IIs running into range from 2 sides (3 if you count the diagonal, where some where), the daimlers quickly fell one after the other. 1-2 went early, and all the rest in a "mad minute", getting only 1 Pz II in return.

That left the centaurs. They were not terribly dangerous and I can see that the Tiger vs. T-34 type comparison is not apt. Because the Tiger had going for it not only armor, but an accurate long range gun. And centaurs don't - lol. Short barrelled, high caliber guns with poor muzzle velocity just aren't a serious threat to rapidly maneuvering, small tanks at range.

The little buggers bounced a lot of shells off of the goliaths, but when they stayed out at range anyway, were not at great risk from the replies. Indeed, HE near misses fragged one of the crew, buttoned many, and eventually immobilized one of the PSWs. The misses were more dangerous than the tiny chance of a direct hit.

To actually take them out, since one PSW (innaccurate themselves, but with better penetration) was already dead, I used a multi-directional charge, while everyone fired in from wide angles of front to ensure somebody got flanks. The remaining PSW was immobilized facing them both, but mostly front aspect, which it could not harm at all. When the Pz IIs charged a couple more bought it, as the centaurs became reasonably accurate under 500m and especially so down at 300m.

And here the limits of my simulation enter, and the lack of a Pz III or Pz 38t component of the German force matters. Marginally better penetration would have helped a lot. If a flat side hit at 500 or 300 yards can kill the thing, you can actually get it. By that time you have numbers, have already damaged them with a "hail" at range accumulating forms of damage, are on multiple sides of them, etc.

They are beasts at bay. As long as you stay far away and moving rapidly, they miss you. You charge from a flank and hope one of your attackers gets the vunerable flank hit before the target can hit one and swivel to the other.

So gun accuracy issues may matter considerably. The importance of that is amplified by numerous rapidly moving small targets. It was also noticable that "hail fire" will eventually work, even on a beast you can't actually get through - although if the replies have any accuracy, you might lose enough tanks to be driven off yourself first. I for one was also surprised by how livable very close ranges were.

How much of that is the crudeness of the simulation, and how much reflects real conditions of the early war armor battle, is hard to say. Some aspects I saw do seem to jive with AARs I've read. (Notably, German tanks made regular use of hail fire against Russian heavies a year later, and it seems to have worked at least a fair portion of the time, if expensive).

I hope this is interesting.