Typical Russian and German Armoured Forces to be Expected Each Year

[Chad Harrison]

Seeing as there will proboably be a lot of newcomers to the history of the Eastern front, I thought I would put together a quick list that gives the most common tanks for both sides each year of the Eastern conflict. My main source for this is (sadly enough!), my old ASL manual and just general knowledge of the Eastern front.

I ask that if anyone would like to add/modify the list, that they do so. I am not looking at production numbers or actual TO&E's of any forces, so my view may be a little off. So, any additional input from those who 'know' would be appreciated by me and those will use this. I plan to post this with Easter front links in the Tips and Tricks forum for all those new to CM, or not to familiar w/ the Eastern Front.

I am lisiting the most common Main Battle Tanks of each major force (Russian and German). Obviously there were other vehicles involved, but these are the most common beasts on the field and what to expect when playing a battle in these years!

Russian Armoured Forces:

---1941---

T-26 series

BT-5 and BT-7

KV-1 (KV-1 M41 more common later in year)

T-34 M40 (model M41 becoming more common late in year)

---1942---

T-34 M41 (by far most common now)

KV-1 M41

T-60 and T-70

---1943---

T-34 M41 (with the model M43 becoming more common later in the year)

KV-1 and KV-1S

T-60 and T-70

SU-122 and SU-152

---1944---

T-34 M43 (model M41 still used, but with decreasing numbers)

T-34/85 making first appearances at late year with increasing numbers

IS-2m making first appearances in late '44

ISU-122 and ISU-152

---1945---

T-34 M43 and T-34/85 being the most common tanks in Russian Army now

IS-2m

ISU-122 and ISU-152

SU-76M

German Armoured Forces:

---1941---

Panzer Mark III Model F and G (with model H becoming more common at the end of the year)

PzKpfw 38(t) Model A and E

StuG IIIB

Panzer Mark IV Model D and E

---1942---

Panzer Mark IIIH (by far most common tank, models J and L becoming more common towards end of year)

Panzer Mark IVF(1) (with model IVF(2) becoming more common towards the end of the year)

StuG III Model B and G

Marder II and III(t)H

---1943---

Panzer Mark IV Model F(2) and H are most common

StuG IIIG

Panzer Mark III late series

Marder Series

---1944---

Panzer Mark IV Model H most common

StuG IIIG

Panzer Mark VG

Marder Series

---1945---

Panzer Mark IV Model H most common

StuG IIIG

Panzer Mark VG

Marder Series

Please post any additions or changes! I tried to keep it to the most common four MBT's for each year of the war. If you would like more information about any of these tanks go to Achtung Panzer! for German Vehicles, and The Russian Battlefield for Russian vehicles.

Chad Harrison

[offtaskagain]

The Panther was present in pretty significant numbers by the end of '43. 850 D models were produced from Dec '42 to Sept '43. The A variant started production in August with 2200 produced by May '44 so probably 500 of those were produced in '43.

[Chad Harrison]

Originally posted by panzerwerfer42:

The Panther was present in pretty significant numbers by the end of '43. 850 D models were produced from Dec '42 to Sept '43. The A variant started production in August with 2200 produced by May '44 so probably 500 of those were produced in '43.

I knew that the panther made its debute around the time of Kursk, and it was the Model D's poor mechanical failures that got it into so much trouble!

Would you say that you would be more likely to see a Panther Model D than say a Mark III series or a Marder series tank?

[Bastables]

Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

knew that the panther made its debute around the time of Kursk, and it was the Model D's poor mechanical failures that got it into so much trouble!

Would you say that you would be more likely to see a Panther Model D than say a Mark III series or a Marder series tank?

.

Inventory in Panzertruppen II (Jentz 1996) appendices.

Pz III (5 and 7,5cm Kw.K.)

June43:1370

July43:1276

Aug:1077

Sep43:1006

Oct43:1131

Nov43:1067

Dec43:960

Panther

June43:273

July43:447

Aug43:553

Sep43:650

Oct43:728

Nov43:851

Dec43:989

Pz III production never rose above 50 veh a month in 43 and was discontinued in September 43 although rebuilds continued to take place until the final three months of the war.

[ August 24, 2002, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: Bastables ]

[lcm1947]

Thanks for the post Chad. Seeing that I don't know nothing about nothing on the eastern front it was very intereting to me to see the tank types involved.

[Michael Emrys]

I would expect the Pz IIIJ and IIIL to be present in quantity beginning a little earlier, say the middle of '42. But I wouldn't claim that they were the predominant model.

Michael

[Chad Harrison]

Originally posted by lcm1947:

Thanks for the post Chad. Seeing that I don't know nothing about nothing on the eastern front it was very intereting to me to see the tank types involved.

No problem. Before I heard that the next installment was going to be the Eastern front, I have never really enjoyed the Eastern front. Now, I have read quite a bit on it in the past year or so, and have really become interested in it! I am glad that I could help out a bit.

Chad

[Andreas]

Originally posted by panzerwerfer42:

The Panther was present in pretty significant numbers by the end of '43. 850 D models were produced from Dec '42 to Sept '43. The A variant started production in August with 2200 produced by May '44 so probably 500 of those were produced in '43.

How many of these 1,350 made it to the front though? It seems to have taken at least a few weeks to retrain crews, and this was done in Germany. So you find battalions in conversion until about mid-1944. E.g. 13.PD had no Panther battalion in August 1944, I think SS Wiking also got theirs quite late.

Does anyone have the info on how long the conversion took, and when the various battalions converted?

[Firefly]

I know they were light tanks, but I'd expect to see the Pz-II in largish numbers in 1941 to early 1942, as well.

Edited to add: I know it's been posted here before, but there's some good Soviet TO&E info at http://www.skalman.nu/soviet/ww2-army.htm .

[ August 25, 2002, 05:23 AM: Message edited by: Firefly ]

[Bastables]

For 1943 Panther abteilung that returned to the eastern front after conversion training.

Abteilung 51: July (96 Panthers)

Abteilung 52: July (96 Panthers)

Regt Stab 39: July (8 Panthers)

The remnents of above were intergrated into Pz Gren GD after Kursk/Orel along with 96 brand new Panthers

I.Abteilung/ Panzer SS Regt 2: August (71 Panthers)

II.Abteilung/ Panzer Regt 23: September (96 Panthers)

I.Abteilung/ Panzer Regt 2: October (71 Panthers)

I.Abteilung/ Panzer Regt 1: November (76 Panthers)

I.Abteilung/ Panzer SS Regt 1: November (96 Panthers)

I.Abteilung/ Panzer Regt 31: December (76 Panthers)

The above do not take into account losses and replacments because I'm tired, and no one NO ONE will ask.

(1996 Jentz)

[ August 25, 2002, 07:12 AM: Message edited by: Bastables ]

[Mattias]

Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

Please post any additions or changes! I tried to keep it to the most common four MBT's for each year of the war.

Good idea Chad! A few observations

Panther prevalence in 43 and early 44? Wasn't that one of the "official" questions asked by BTS a few months ago?

As I recall it, as usual, deteriorated into mess but not before the numbers where pretty much on the table and a pretty convincing estimate could be made. Make a search

-As for the T34/85, it was introduced in late '43 and entered the fray in early '44.

-Early '43 you have, what, three times as many Pz III as Pz IV in inventory.

-There were about three times as many Pz IV G produced as there was F1's and F2's

-Twice as many StuG F and F/8 produced in '42 as there was ever StuG B's, StuG's only from December '42

-The Marders seems to have a greater staying power in real life than in CM:BO but in late '44 and '45 they would have been superseded by the JgPz's, there were more (or at least as many) Hetzers made than there were Marders (of all types).

-A significant period of '44 you would have as many, or more, Panther A's as G's.

M.

[Chad Harrison]

Originally posted by Firefly:

I know they were light tanks, but I'd expect to see the Pz-II in largish numbers in 1941 to early 1942, as well.

Thanks for the comment Firefly. I did note that, but I tried to keep it to the main four MBT's that you would be most likely to see in CMBB. Do you think that we should replace on of the 1941 German AFV's w/ the Mark II?

[Chad Harrison]

Originally posted by Mattias:

Good idea Chad! A few observations

Thanks for all the great info Mattias! My main source was the rarity chart for Advaced Squad Leader. I knew that even if I tried to do more research, you guys would keep giving more good info! I will repost this after all comments have been made all updated and pretty along with some other cool stuff for CMBB!!

PLEASE KEEP THE COMMENTS COMING SO WE CAN FIX THIS UP NICE AND PRETTY AND MAKE IT A GOOD RESOURSE FOR NEWCOMERS TO CM AND THE EASTERN FRONT!!

Chad Harrison

[Vergeltungswaffe]

CMBB will also have its own rarity factor system, which should help out the uninitiated.

[Andreas]

A good example of the difficulty in making general statements is AG North in 1941. Three PDs were present (1. 6. 8.) I do not know the tank equipment of 8.PD, but 1. was a fairly 'normal' PD, with largely PIII and PIV. 6. however was the only PD that was left with Pz 35t in 1941.

6. PD

Pz II - 70

Pz 35t - 105

Pz IV - 42

1. PD

Pz II - 45

Pz III - 75

Pz IV - 28

Assuming 8. PD was equally equipped as 1. PD, we have the following tank strengths in AG North:

Pz II - 160

Pz III - 150

Pz IV - 101

Skoda 35t - 105

Don't know the number of Stugs.

Trying to develop a hard & fast rule for QBs is fine, but it will not be better than rarity, and will deprive you of the interesting sight and tactical problems posed by the more unusual crap fielded in 1941, for example.

[Firefly]

Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

Thanks for the comment Firefly. I did note that, but I tried to keep it to the main four MBT's that you would be most likely to see in CMBB. Do you think that we should replace on of the 1941 German AFV's w/ the Mark II?

No, not if your intention was to stick to medium/heavy tanks, from what I understand it was mainly used by reconnaissance units. I just thought I'd mention that it was widely used.

[Andreas]

Not quite - in June 1941 13.PD was equipped as follows:

Pz-Rgt.4

Staff coy

3 command tanks Pz III

Rgt recce platoon - 5 Pz II

I Abt.

Staff coy

2 command tanks Pz III

Abt recce platoon @ 5 Pz II

2 light tank coys

Coy HQ 2 Pz III

1 platoon @ 5 Pz II

3 platoons @ 5 Pz III

1 medium coy

Coy HQ @ 2 Pz IV

1 Platoon @ 5 Pz IV

3 Platoons @ 4 Pz IV

II. Abt same as I. Abt.

Total

Pz II 35 (15 recce, 20 line)

Pz III 68

Pz IV 38

Bef Pz III 9

hope I got my numbers right.

The divisional Panzer AA 13 had ACs, not Panzer II.

[Guest Mike]

I don't think you should restrict it to "MBT's" (in het sense of Mediums/Heavies) - you've already included a lot of light tanks for the Russians (T-60's, T-70's, BT's, T-26's), so perhaps just the most common tanks full stop?

I doubt players are really going to worry about the official "role" of such vehicles any more than we do in CMBO!!

[Farnz]

Nice work Chad. I never realised that Marders were that common. I'd check on the production numbers but my ASL is in the attic.

So what were the overall production figures for Marders(all types) and, whilst we're at it Stugs ?

Tanks in advance!

[Chad Harrison]

Originally posted by Mike:

I don't think you should restrict it to "MBT's" (in het sense of Mediums/Heavies) - you've already included a lot of light tanks for the Russians (T-60's, T-70's, BT's, T-26's), so perhaps just the most common tanks full stop?

I doubt players are really going to worry about the official "role" of such vehicles any more than we do in CMBO!!

Do you think ANYBODY used a Greyhound as they were intended? Greyhounds are my panther killers (from the side ofcourse)

I did not intentionally avoid the light tanker, I left out the Mark II because it was used IMO mostly outside the scope of CM. Ofcourse they will be in the game, but they will not be as common in CMBB as their production numbers/field numbers would lead to believe IMO.

Originally posted by Farnz:

Nice work Chad. I never realised that Marders were that common. I'd check on the production numbers but my ASL is in the attic.

So what were the overall production figures for Marders(all types) and, whilst we're at it Stugs ?

There were about (according to Achtung Panzer) 10548 StuG III and IV build from 1940-45, and the Marder series were about 3900 produced from 1942-May 44. Again, my main source was ASL. ASL puts the Marder series very high on the list of common tanks towards the later years of the war. Would anyone with more production knowledge dispute that?

Originally posted by Vergeltungswaffe:

CMBB will also have its own rarity factor system, which should help out the uninitiated.

Which is something that we all greatly look forward too! That will help weed things out a bit (when its on), but this is mainly so people who dont know, have somekind of clue of what to most likely expect out there! The Normandy campaign had pretty much the same players throughout the CMBO range of time, with only a few armour additions as the months went on. CMBB will be an entirely different story where you start out in 1941 with the Mark III and end up with the Panzerkampfwagen VI Tiger!

Please keep the great comments coming! I hope to have a complete guide with web links, and information ready by the time the demo is released. All help is appreciated!

Chad Harrison

BTW, does anyone know of a good site with production numbers for German and Russian in a nice chart?

[Dryfear]

Good statistics on German panzer productions for the whole war here:

http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/prod-tanks.htm

I'm sure you guys already know about TRF, though.

[WWB]

In 41, Panzer IIs were effectively MBTs, as there were more of them floating around than any other models IIRC.

In 42, you would see Stug IIIFs, not Gs.

Someone already pointed out how hard the Panzer IIIs hung on, they would quite common into 44 when they wasted out of service.

For the soviets, what about the SU-85, which was made in huge numbers and pre-dated the T34/85.

WWB

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Bastables:

For 1943 Panther abteilung that returned to the eastern front after conversion training.

Abteilung 51: July (96 Panthers)

Abteilung 52: July (96 Panthers)

Regt Stab 39: July (8 Panthers)

The remnents of above were intergrated into Pz Gren GD after Kursk/Orel along with 96 brand new Panthers

(1996 Jentz)

But then I./Pz Rgt GD moved to France in the autumn to refit, and didn't move back east until August 1944 - they saw no action at all in this period.

They were replaced in GD by I./Pz Rgt 26, which performed very well and earned some Knight's Crosses for itself.

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

I did not intentionally avoid the light tanker, I left out the Mark II because it was used IMO mostly outside the scope of CM. Ofcourse they will be in the game, but they will not be as common in CMBB as their production numbers/field numbers would lead to believe IMO.

How do you figure that? There were platoons of PzIIs scattered throughout the Panzer Battalion organization through 1942. The strength returns in Jentz' books indicate that they were used (and killed) quite a bit.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

I did not intentionally avoid the light tanker, I left out the Mark II because it was used IMO mostly outside the scope of CM. Ofcourse they will be in the game, but they will not be as common in CMBB as their production numbers/field numbers would lead to believe IMO.

How do you figure that? There were platoons of PzIIs scattered throughout the Panzer Battalion organization through 1942. The strength returns in Jentz' books indicate that they were used (and killed) quite a bit.</font>