CMers and Real Combat

[PeterX]

A tennis buddy of mine, Jeff, served two tours in Viet-Nam on a delta based patrol boat. He was known as the 'hedge-clipper' due to his tendancy to spray the top of the tree line with the boat's .50 caliber machine gun. He says it took a lot of strength to operate, maybe because as a 20 yr old enlistee he weighed only 145 pounds soaking wet. Sometimes, he says, a black-clad sniper would fall out of the trees.

Jeff, who's now in his 50s, reminisced the other day over a firefight that took place against some VC on shore. He remembers how his friend took a round in the chest. They tired to drag away from the exposed part of the boat but it was tough because, in addition to spurting blood, he was convulsing and striking out unconsciously at the other marines. I'll spare the forum the other unpleasant details but it was nasty. Disgusting, nasty, and decidedly unglamorous. This guy died in Jeff's arms.

Several of the posters on this forum has served or are serving in the military. And I salute them. But you wonder. How many have seen real action? You wonder if it's possible to get a guy interested in a sim like Combat Mission after he's been there and done that. After he's 'seen the elephant'. Would this hobby strike them as sacreligious in some way? Something to ponder while we plot our moves.

[ October 10, 2002, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: PeterX ]

[The_Capt]

Interesting question...

Well I never saw the action the lads in Viet Nam did..I think I got close enough to "the elephant" to know I never want to go back.

Not speaking for myself but another individual I play with who did serve as a medic with the Air Cav in Nam, I think his perspective is that CM is a game. It poses a problem which take resources and skill to solve.

It is far enough removed from reality to really make it no more similar to real combat than say chess or hockey..well strike that last one.

Vets are a strange bunch, some things bother them and some don't. I am sure a few may stay away from CM.

I for one do not hunt anymore, I use to a lot growing up and before but not now. "Hate" is a four letter word in my house but I don't mind toy guns.

If you can figure it out let me know.

[ October 10, 2002, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: The_Capt ]

[Agua]

We had a fellow who posted a time or two on the forum a couple years ago who claimed to be a vet of the Italian Campaign that was searching for any CMBO scenarios depicting battles on the Penninsula. I have no reason to doubt he was who he said he was. I assume he found CMBO interesting.

OTOH, my Dad seemed to find the portrayal of a unit that he was with in another game (Talonsoft's Rising Sun) to be disrespectful, though he had no problems playing board games like PzB & PzL with me when I was a child.

So, I guess these anecdotes sort of illustrate what Capt was stating: it probably just varies from vet to vet and, even, in the case of my dad, maybe whether the portrayal touches something personal to them.

[ October 10, 2002, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: Agua ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Forever Babra served with the IDF during, IIRC, Peace for Galilee. When discussing mistaken identity during night battles, he recounted for us the story of his subunit engaging in a firefight for the better part of an hour (again IIRC) before both sides realized they were all members of the same battalion.

Vets aren't necessarily a funny lot, there are just a LOT of them out there, and they are as diverse as humanity itself. Some would indeed be mortally offended that we take what their friends went through as a "game" - but such is life.

[Pak_40_Gunner[11b]]

I was an Infantry man with the 10th mountain division in Southern Somalia in 1993, we saw lots of elephants. lots of little engagements that lasted 1 minute, some a liottle longer, a whole week in an embattled city caught in a civil war. It isnt the combat its the man, and he was affected by it. I love war games, the way I look at it, nothing I saw can compare to the Eastern front in 1941. Its always good to remember that no matter how hard its going, it has gone a lot harder for someone else.

[Zigwied]

I spent about 4 months in Northern Iraq with the 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit, starting a couple days after the ground war ceased. We were mortared the first night at an Iraqi special forces base in Muqbal, but after that it was fairly quiet. Got a first hand look at a captured Soviet-made radio van, lotsa AK-47's, burned Kurds, a ton of Soviet ammo and landmines. My radio guy, Harry, filed open a bunch of the 12mm casings and we used the powder to burn "F&%K Saddam!" on the concrete roof of the tallest building. The BLT Commander flew over the compound the next day and we got busted.

One night on radio watch, an FA-18 from the Teddy Roosevelt reported taking ground fire from an Iraqi AAA gun. He reported it to me in the DASC (Direct Air Support Center),(I was a corporal, both LT's were asleep), after pissing my pants for 10 seconds I asked him his intentions. He calmy told me he was going to drop a flare on their heads and watch them run. I had forgotten the intense level of AAA our guys had encountered over Bagdad during the air war.

A couple weeks later I read about the incident in the London Times. I also was the map guy for the conference of officers that planned out the Northern No Fly Zone - still in effect.

Semper Fidelis!

[Mafiozox]

Hey, who's forever babra?

My father fought in the peace for Galilee war, told me how he took down 3 syrian commandos with his units on the outskirts of Beirut.

he has no problem talking about hix experience in the litani operation ('78) and the lebanon war, once he told me how they were driving a jeep on a tight road in lebanon, and a sager missile hit the driver, his whole head just went off in front of my fathers eye.

he was never interested in my war games, he only likes solitare.

[WineCape]

Lone infantry man here,

On the soccer field, big clashes -- Orlando Pirates playing either Kaizer Chiefs/Mamelodi Sundowns/Jomo Cosmos -- 80,000 people in FNB Stadium, the crowd roaring for your blood...

It takes a brave referee with nerves of steel to award a legit penalty in the dying seconds of the match. The "little*" man in the middle, dressed in black, that's me...

Regards,

Charl Theron

* I'm actually 1,93m

PS:

Served in the 44 South African Battalion (Parabats) in the Angola-Namibian-Cuban-Russian-Jonas Savimbi war, middle '80's in the Caprivi region, just before South West Africa's independance. Seen many a bloody para-trooper after fire fights against SWAPO in the bush war, thankfully I "escaped" without serious harm...

Had a ride in '87 in one of our (the SA Defence Force) own pride and joy's below, the G6...

An artillery system that rocked the world with its 39km range when it entered service in the early 1980s is being modernized to outrange the latest NATO howitzers. South Africa’s G6 155mm howitzer is now being developed to achieve ranges of 50km, 60km or even 70km, according to an exclusive report in the November issue of Jane’s International Defense Review (IDR).

The Denel company of South Africa - formerly known as Armscor - was producing G6 and G5 guns with a 39km range when NATO armies were still equipped with weapons that could only reach between 18 and 30km. European and US manufacturers have fought hard to make up the gap, but now South Africa has taken another giant leap forward, using new ammunition and a long barrel development dubbed the G6-52.This advanced technology draws on lessons learned from operational South African artillery in the Middle East and Africa, the initial inspiration for it having been provided by Gerry Bull, the designer of the Iraqi “Supergun” who was assassinated in 1990. Denel faces difficult decisions regarding which nations to sell the artillery to. Instead of “hotlist” nations, the company is now offering its technology to a number of NATO nations that are struggling to reach performance targets with their own designs.

[ October 12, 2002, 04:50 AM: Message edited by: WineCape ]

[von Lucke]

Originally posted by Mafiozox:

Hey, who's forever babra?

One of the more interesting members of this board, during the early years. Ex-Israeli, lived in Canada, then moved back to Israel about the time the current troubles started.

Me, I spent 15yrs in the US Army. Played wargames before I joined, while I was in, and still do. Just a matter of recognizing the difference between simulation and reality.

[Stoffel]

I have spent a few years as an armored infantry man in the dutch army.

Lucky for me I never saw combat(thank god for that) nor did I ever had to fire my weapon at another human.

I never saw someone got shot,but I did see the remains of a guy shred to pieces by a tank.

Which wasnt a funny experience.

I am going to join Dutch national guard soon

I like wargames,specially good ones

[Hakko Ichiu]

Originally posted by von Lucke:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mafiozox:

Hey, who's forever babra?

One of the more interesting members of this board, during the early years. Ex-Israeli, lived in Canada, then moved back to Israel about the time the current troubles started.

</font>

[Nidan1]

I served in the USMC, and did a tour in Vietnam. I was wounded twice, sprayed with dioxin, spit on when I got home, and suffered PTSD in the '80s.

I guess that makes me a walking cliche of the Vietnam Vet, but the key here is "walking" My father was a Marine in the Pacific, and survived 36 days on Iwo Jima, without a scratch. Like most guys growing up in the USA in the '40s and '50s, most of our Dads had served in WWII, and when our time came we were willing to go as well. I have been playing wargames since I was 12, with toy soldiers, and with board games. Now I have found CM, and I love playing it. Do I know the difference between pixelated mayhem and the real thing?..sure I do. Suffering in war does not always occur in combat, sometimes just trying to survive the environment is painful.

I enjoy playing this game very much, I have come in contact with some interesting people on this forum, most of them seem to be very nice guys.

It takes my mind off the BS of real life, and keeps me out of trouble. It is stimulating both mentally and physically. War is something that humankind has practiced to a fine art, unfortunately,IMHO if we kept it to PC games, the world would be a better place.

[Buck Turgidson]

Forever Babra Long Live The King!

[athkatla]

Hi guys, well I guess I'm a vet of sorts, having served 14 years in the British Army as a Corporal. Didn't see action in the Gulf or the Falklands, but saw out several tours in N Ireland.

I've heard the crack of a high velocity round on more than one occassion and seen what car bombs etc can do to a human body, but i loce wargames, they are not the same.

[Khane]

Originally posted by Mafiozox:

My father fought in the peace for Galilee war,

Hey Mafiozox....I thought I was the only Israeli playing CM. Did you pre order CMBB and if so did you already receive it ?

Originally posted by PeterX:

You wonder if it's possible to get a guy interested in a sim like Combat Mission after he's been there and done that.After he's 'seen the elephant'.

Yes.I played CMBO for almost 2 years and I am waiting CMBB to reach my doormat...in spite that I seen the real thing ( in an IDF combat unit during the October 1973 war and the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982 ) . Many time when I run the game I ask myself the same question : "why do I play a wargame after what I have seen ?".That's something I should ask a good therapist ! Maybe because CM is what a war is not : safe and fun and above all because of what I think is a very wise decision of the creators of this game : CM does not graphically represent the ugly and gory side of war ( bloody corps , deformed and burnt body pieces , blood puddles and so on...)

Originally posted by PeterX:

Would this hobby strike them as sacreligious in some way?

Depends...I know some ex combatants who definitely find hobbies like wargames and other violent video games as absolutely sacrilegious and I understand them perfectly. Each one his personal experience and his own way to react to it. I admit that sometime in spite that I know that CM is only a game with a bunch of pixels running around I feel very much uncomfortable and do feel strong culpability feelings when I find myself "enjoying" something related to "war" like a CM scenario ; less than a year ago I deleted my CM folder and stopped playing for some time.

Khane

[ October 12, 2002, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: Khane ]

[benpark]

My father is a Vietnam vet (101AB), and saw plenty of combat. He is a Close Combat junkie, and I am working hard on him to get the CMBO/CMBB bundle.

I think playing wargames has a large amount to do with an interest in history. I don't know if he would play a Vietnam game, but not because of a fear of "flashbacks". It would be more a case of seeing something he experienced firsthand, and not seeing that accurately portrayed within a simulation.

[Splinty]

I'm a Gulf War vet (Mech Inf,w 1st Armored Div.) and although I only saw 4 days of combat, they were 4 intense days. I love gaming,and I think it's because as a digital commander you have control of everything that's going on around you, in war you have no real control whatsoever.

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by Nidan1:

My father was a Marine in the Pacific, and survived 36 days on Iwo Jima, without a scratch.

My grandfather was on the USS Ingraham (destroyer) in the Pacific in WWII, as a radar operator (maybe radio? did they have radar on ships then?). The ship was kamikazed, but fortunately didn't sink.

Suffering in war does not always occur in combat, sometimes just trying to survive the environment is painful.

I can vaguely understand that...having just come back from a somewhat miserable day of paintball in constant rain, mud, cold, etc. Visibility was awful (fogged mask didn't help- kind of a real FOW), and I couldn't see where my shots were going (rental guns are inaccurate).

I can't imagine actually being out in the field, living in the wild, fighting day in and day out. I give those guys a lot of credit.