German paratroop monument Crete

[Stoffel]

Hi all,

I have just returned from a holiday in Crete,off course I have payed a visit to the military sites there.

Most impressive was the german friedhof at maleme where all german troops are buried.

But what really shocked me was the fact that the monument for those brave soldiers was destroyed.

Have a look at this site and join the efforts of a group people who wants to restore the monument.

Even one of the most famous partizans of that time found it hard to believe that the monumnet was broken down.

He too gave money and said he was shocked to see a part of Cretes history was gone.

http://www.fallschirmjaeger-denkmal.de/English.htm

Take a look at the site,

Stoffel

[David I]

Here in the States they would build a Wall-Mart on it and tell you to be thankful!

A shame.

DavidI

[John Kettler]

The eagle's aspect completely threw me initially, until I realized that it was supposed to represent an eagle swooping down on its prey. It then made perfect sense!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Shmavis]

Hello, Stoffel! I have to say that there are more than a couple of people who remember the German occupation of Crete and are still not happy about it. I'm surprised that monument lasted as long as it did.

This may be a complete fabrication, but I had an instructor who was stationed at Crete for a few years, and he told me the story of a German veteran. This guy returned to Crete decades after being stationed there during the war, occupation duties and such. As he was walking along a rural road, he encountered a sheep farmer. The farmer noticed that he wasn't a local resident and asked the usual questions. When the veteran explained the farmer excused himself for a few minutes, returned and shot the veteran.

This may be a rumor turned legend, but all of the Greeks that I've met were not people with whom I would trifle.

[bitchen frizzy]

I don't like to see an historical artifact deteriorate, but I'm not suprised that Crete isn't making an effort to preserve a monument erected by its conquerers, during the occupation, to those who died in the conquest effort.

The phrase "Greater Germany", which appears in the inscription, is politically loaded - or was, at least, sixty years ago when the monument's neglect began.

[Stoffel]

True there are rather unfriendly reactions but everything has two sides.

A country has to make sure its historicall buildings,monuments and so on to be in good shape.

The monument can als be explained different,as a sign of a fallen umpire,overwon by the good.

Once I have the pictures on my pc from the Friedhof you see what I mean.

Children from 16 countries (including russia,greece and some other eastern countries)helped in a project to renovate the graves of the German soldiers.

The same goes for my country,allthough there was a lot of tension between Holland and Indonesia,they now respect eachothers graves and monuments.

The bundeswehr also payed for projects and layed flowers in coordination with the greek and british army.

Recently German soldiers were invited too at several commemorationmarches in Europe.

[Andreas]

I can't get particularly upset about this. I also see no reason why any 'official' German institution should become involved (as is insinuated on the website linked above).

The Volksbund works on a not-for-profit basis, and the 1st Parachute Division has adopted the Maleme war cemetary. Anything beyond that is private pleasure. Good luck to them in getting the monument re-erected, but even if they fail, it is not as if there is no memory to the fallen left on Crete.

All the best

Andreas

[painfbat]

= = = I also see no reason why any 'official' German institution should become involved = = =

"... man erkennt den Charakter eines Volkes auch daran, wie es nach einem verlorenen Krieg mit seinem Soldaten umgeht."

[Stoffel]

The Bundeswehr is an official institution if I am right????

I wasnt speaking about german government though but more about the Greek government.

But nontheless PAINFBAT has a good point.

[Evzone]

Stoffel,

your visit to the cemetery was no doubt a sad and poignant affair. But during your recent stay on Crete it seems you completely missed the hatred its people continue to feel towards the Germans. It may not be fair to modern day Germans but Germany's legacy on Crete is one of monstrous brutality and destruction. 20+ villages were razed, communities that had lived on these sites for several generations completely wiped out, because they chose to resist Nazism. 1000s were executed, women and children were no exception because they too took arms. Perhaps if you had left the resort you might have come back with concerns other than a great german eagle swooping down on its prey. With Crete having one of the highest longevity rates in the world you would have met many, many locals who tasted German boot.

Your concern for local culture is also misguided. Historical monuments were bombed, 1,000 year old venetian palaces and stone bridges were bombed. Even the ruins of the palace of Knossos, dating back to the 18th c. BC were subjected to mortar fire. And yet you ask that the Operation Merkur monument be regarded as a part of this great island's culture.

One last thing because if I don't defend little Greece who will? You suggest that Greece pays for the monument commemerating the successful German invasion and subjugation of Crete? Ok, but you may be ignorant of the fact that Germany has yet to pay the long overdue war reparations she owes Greece. The Greek FM, Mrs, Bakoyiannis was in Germany only last week, reminding Merkel that it's about time Germany coughed up. Some of this compensation could go to the Cretan folk considering they provided for their oppressors' entire food needs, for free, for the entire four years.

Thanks,

Evzone

[Andreas]

Originally posted by painfbat:

= = = I also see no reason why any 'official' German institution should become involved = = =

"... man erkennt den Charakter eines Volkes auch daran, wie es nach einem verlorenen Krieg mit seinem Soldaten umgeht."

There's the official cemetary which is cared for by the first parachute division, and you don't get more official than that in caring for german war cemetaries.

So what's your point exactly? Maybe you did just feel like making a smart yet pointless remark without having understood my whole post? Maybe you just like to quote out of context to show off how great you are? Maybe I need to spell out my point in one-syllable words to make sure you understand it? So many questions...

All the best

Andreas

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Evzone:

Stoffel,

your visit to the cemetery was no doubt a sad and poignant affair. But during your recent stay on Crete it seems you completely missed the hatred its people continue to feel towards the Germans. It may not be fair to modern day Germans but Germany's legacy on Crete is one of monstrous brutality and destruction. 20+ villages were razed, communities that had lived on these sites for several generations completely wiped out, because they chose to resist Nazism. 1000s were executed, women and children were no exception because they too took arms. Perhaps if you had left the resort you might have come back with concerns other than a great german eagle swooping down on its prey. With Crete having one of the highest longevity rates in the world you would have met many, many locals who tasted German boot.

Your concern for local culture is also misguided. Historical monuments were bombed, 1,000 year old venetian palaces and stone bridges were bombed. Even the ruins of the palace of Knossos, dating back to the 18th c. BC were subjected to mortar fire. And yet you ask that the Operation Merkur monument be regarded as a part of this great island's culture.

One last thing because if I don't defend little Greece who will? You suggest that Greece pays for the monument commemerating the successful German invasion and subjugation of Crete? Ok, but you may be ignorant of the fact that Germany has yet to pay the long overdue war reparations she owes Greece. The Greek FM, Mrs, Bakoyiannis was in Germany only last week, reminding Merkel that it's about time Germany coughed up. Some of this compensation could go to the Cretan folk considering they provided for their oppressors' entire food needs, for free, for the entire four years.

Thanks,

Evzone

Bears repeating. Well said Evzone.

All the best

Andreas

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Stoffel:

True there are rather unfriendly reactions but everything has two sides.

A country has to make sure its historicall buildings,monuments and so on to be in good shape.

The monument can als be explained different,as a sign of a fallen umpire,overwon by the good.

Once I have the pictures on my pc from the Friedhof you see what I mean.

Children from 16 countries (including russia,greece and some other eastern countries)helped in a project to renovate the graves of the German soldiers.

The same goes for my country,allthough there was a lot of tension between Holland and Indonesia,they now respect eachothers graves and monuments.

The bundeswehr also payed for projects and layed flowers in coordination with the greek and british army.

Recently German soldiers were invited too at several commemorationmarches in Europe.

You do understand that the monument the website you linked to talks about and the war cemetary at Maleme have zero to do with each other in terms of who set them up and who is responsible for caring for them?

And that the 'Bund Deutscher Fallschirmjäger' is a private association?

Because from your posts it appears to me that you are maybe mixing things up a bit.

All the best

Andreas

[Stoffel]

Evzone,

I have also visited the Allied graves,when I do I fell sorry for the vitims no matter if they are German or English or whatever,I think as a soldier.

Maybe if you see where I come from you will see that what happened in Crete has also happened in my country.

Besides bombing a ruin,hospital,or anything else is legal according to the genevian convention if enemy troops held up in or near such an item.

I am not talking here to defend the Nazi regime,I am talking as a soldier,this monument does not stand for the regime but for the soldiers who fought there.

Dont you think that here in holland we havent suffered too,here too entire villages were destroyed and all inhabitants killed.

A lot more civillians,jews and soldiers died than in Greece,and my country is smaller than Greece.

I am a jew,my family suffered too,so I am certainly not a nazifanboy,but I am a soldier.

And regarding payments,everybody knows what that can lead too,its one of the reasons for the start of ww2.

[painfbat]

Originally posted by Andreas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by painfbat:

= = = I also see no reason why any 'official' German institution should become involved = = =

"... man erkennt den Charakter eines Volkes auch daran, wie es nach einem verlorenen Krieg mit seinem Soldaten umgeht."

There's the official cemetary which is cared for by the first parachute division, and you don't get more official than that in caring for german war cemetaries.

So what's your point exactly? Maybe you did just feel like making a smart yet pointless remark without having understood my whole post? Maybe you just like to quote out of context to show off how great you are? Maybe I need to spell out my point in one-syllable words to make sure you understand it? So many questions...

All the best

Andreas </font>

[Andreas]

Originally posted by painfbat:

You said "I also see no reason why any 'official' German institution should become involved".

That's where I have this opion, as I believe they should. I doesn't mather from which side you look at it, AH was chosen by the German people and 'till today the German people, ergo the German Gouvernment have to deal with what happend(Kollektivverantwordung)till now. And I have this idea that the "verantwordung" also counts for those fallen in name of the German people, monuments to remember them( Let's not forget the Crete monument was 1st off all in the remembrance of the fallen FJ-pioneers, who like so many other units suffert terrible losses for Adolf's pleasure).

It is my believe that the German Gouvernment has to take care of the monument and uses it as a warning for next generations to come. And not because they want to but because it's their duty, to make clear what happened on Crete.It will draw the attention of many tourists etc. so is an ideal monument to give out a warning. Some people call that using something bad for the good.And as there are no good musea at Crete about the war, the monument even becomes more important.

I won't go into the hypocritical rant that accompanied it, which also misses pretty much any point it is trying to make.

So just to point this out: I see no reason that German taxpayers' money should be spend on anything having the word 'Grossdeutschland' in it, or indeed a honourable mention of the Fahneneid, which prevented officers from taking up arms against Hitler due to a mistaken notion of honour. End of story. If you see it differently, you are wrong.

In my view the Volksbund should be funded through government grants (I have no idea if it is or not), and the care of monuments such as the cemetary at Maleme is important enough for taxpayers' money to go it. But having that cemetary fulfills all the requirements of warning future generations. There is no need to officially support the preservation of hero worshipping such as the FJ-monument, in fact I think it would be counter to this aim.

So, all your childish ranting is for nothing, and makes you look ridiculous. And if you don't like my tone, don't quote me out of context next time.

Sorry I had to use multiple syllable words again. But in any case you can go and get stuffed.

Andreas

[ September 25, 2006, 04:32 AM: Message edited by: Andreas ]

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Stoffel:

A lot more civillians,jews and soldiers died than in Greece,and my country is smaller than Greece.

I am not sure what this has to do with anything, but in any case, The Netherlands has a much smaller territory than Greece, but a lot more population today, and I should think it was similar in 1940.

Netherlands: 16,407,491

Greece: 10,668,354

According to the CIA factbook.

All the best

Andreas

[DavidFields]

I visited a German cemetary in Normandy once, which was beautiful, discrete, and peaceful. Smooth, soft-brown marble crosses, in 3s, peacefully set in some woods--with a sort of universally set spiritual entrance. It was very moving to calculate the ages of some of those-- boys-- killed.

This monument in Crete sounded if it was nothing of that sort. An eagle swooping down on prey?

I doubt that, for example, even the widows of the Confederacy could have put such an in-your-face monument in Gettysburg. A monument wistful about the slave trade? A monument with a CSA soldier trampling a US flag? I don't think so. The death of people can always be lamented. The death of some ideologies need not be.(Though, perhaps with this group, someone will prove me wrong with some Gettysburg monument picture.)

And, to actually mention CM in a thread, I happen to be 1/2 way through the operation Descent at Maleme. Superb--as a subject, as an operation, and as a map. Kudos to the designer.

[Dandelion]

It's a monument.

Not a grave, not a cemetary.

I can see no obligation for Germany to maintain any Nazi monuments wherever they might have been raised, for whatever reason.

Some monumental structures are interesting insofar that they make excellent display of typical contemporary totalitarian art. They have kept, for instance, the basic layout of Tempelhof - landing there is a bit like stepping into a PK flick, and can really give you the weirdest feeling.

But apart from such landmarks, I can't really see neither historical nor moral interest in maintaining every little rock raised all over Europe.

In quite a few eastern German cities there were monuments celebrating the equally heroic sacrifices of the soldiers of the Red Army. You don't see very many of them around anymore. Nor can you see very many in Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic etc. Only Vienna seems hell bent to retain her ridiculous monument celebrating her "liberation" (I guess the Austrians really, really need to believe they were liberated rather than conquered).

The dismantling of the monuments of the fomer Soviet régime was not an act of disrespect against the fallen soldiers of that former empire, nor has it soured relations between any former member of the empire and Germany.

The monuments were just obsolete and uninteresting.

Like this monument. Why can't this lot bring the monument home to their own garden, and tend it in peace?

Chop chop

Dandelion

[Evzone]

The population of Greece at the outbreak of WWII was 7m: 400,000 deaths, mostly due to starvation.

The population of Holland was 9m.: 250,000 deaths.

However, a little more than 100,000 of these deaths were deported jews, killed in concentration camps far from Holland and not by the occupying forces or due to reprisals against francs-tireurs. The Dutch resistance was primarily non-militaristic and was putting up a spiritual rather than a material struggle.

On Crete the slogan was "Freedom or Death", they killed Germans ceaselessly and relentlessly with WWI rifles, daggers, farming tools and even their bare hands. I don't see how we can compare the Dutch to the Cretans. The Cretans can't even be compared to anyone in Greece. Their personal and national pride is often over the top. Did you actually meet any Cretans other than the hotel staff or restauranteurs with euro signs in their eyes? I've lived and worked at such resorts but have also lived in villages with the common Cretan folk. I served in a predominantly Cretan regiment whilst doing my national service.

I did not for a moment think you were a nazi sympathizer or nazi fanboy as you say but I strongly felt you were getting your priorities a little muddled, maybe got carried away a little by your emotions. If you had let the Cretans speak to you instead of the fallen Germans, I think you would have found that their story was far more shocking and terrible than that of the Fallshirmjaeger, and you would've thought twice before requesting that something should be done about the fallen german bird.

I would not be surprised if when that gale blew

and knocked it off its pedestal any Cretans witnessing this raised their glasses and drank to Poseidon's health. The more I look at it the clearer become its belligerent and offensive symbolisms.

Thanks,

Evzone

[ September 25, 2006, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: Evzone ]

[Andreas]

I'd like to see some pictures of Dutch government funded monuments to commemorate the heroism and soldierly attitude of the Luftwaffe aircrew who bombed Rotterdam. Or the paratroopers who dropped on Ypenburg (maybe a compromise can be found in which the Dutch government sponsors the removal of the Crete monument to Ypenburg). Or the German soldiers who so valiantly defended Walcheren, with no regard to their own, or indeed the Dutch inhabitants safety and property. Maybe a picture of the monument to the Waffen-SS who valiantly defended Arnhem (it would be nice if it contained 'Meine Ehre heisst Treue' in the dedication) could be shown. Shouldn't you consider a general monument commemorating the valiant German defense of the Netherlands during the Hungerwinter 44/45?

Then posters from the UK could chip in with pictures of monuments to German flyers killed during the Blitz, or German submariners killed while trying to sink cargo ships. Liverpool Harbour strikes me as an appropriate place for the latter, while the former could be placed somewhere near Canary Wharf.

French posters no doubt have tons of pictures of monuments commemorating German soldiers fighting the resistance in the Vercors, the Auvergne, and the Alpes Maritimes, and of course one to commemorate the Meuse crossing at Sedan.

German posters will no doubt be able to find many monuments to the heroes of Bomber Command in their cities.

Norwegians could contribute with pictures of monuments to Dietls Gebirgsjäger at Narvik?

I would not actually be knocked over if some of these do exist, but I would be very surprised if their upkeep was funded by either the government of the formerly occupied country, or indeed the German government.

All the best

Andreas

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Evzone:

On Crete the slogan was "Freedom or Death", they killed Germans ceaselessly and relentlessly with WWI rifles, daggers, farming tools and even their bare hands. I don't see how we can compare the Dutch to the Cretans. The Cretans can't even be compared to anyone in Greece. Their personal and national pride is often over the top. Did you actually meet any Cretans other than the hotel staff or restauranteurs with euro signs in their eyes? I've lived and worked at such resorts but have also lived in villages with the common Cretan folk. I served in a predominantly Cretan regiment whilst doing my national service.

I did not for a moment think you were a nazi sympathizer or nazi fanboy as you say but I strongly felt you were getting your priorities a little muddled, maybe got carried away a little by your emotions. If you had let the Cretans speak to you instead of the fallen Germans, I think you would have found that their story was far more shocking and terrible than that of the Fallshirmjaeger, and you would've thought twice before requesting that something should be done about the fallen german bird.

I would not be surprised if when that gale blew

and knocked it off its pedestal any Cretans witnessing this raised their glasses and drank to Poseidon's health. The more I look at it the clearer become its belligerent and offensive symbolisms.

Thanks,

Evzone

All I need to know about the Cretan attitude to their German occupiers I get from looking at the cover picture of the official Greek Army Historic Institute study on the battle of Crete. The cover shows a painting of a civilian dress Cretan farmer who is busy battering a wounded German paratrooper to death with a rock - on the inside, the name of the farmer is given.

All the best

Andreas

[Thin Red Line]

Originally posted by Andreas:

French posters no doubt have tons of pictures of monuments commemorating German soldiers fighting the resistance in the Vercors, the Auvergne, and the Alpes Maritimes, and Sedan

I wouldn't like to sound fussy , but there is actually a german monument at Sedan (Floing precisely)

... ok, it's commemorating the fights of 1870

a short distance away from the french cavalry monument

(dedicated to the Chasseurs d'Afrique , who were heroïcally slaughtered here in a typical french style)

But, i agree with Andreas, something definitly not conceivable regarding the german occupation troops in France.

[Andreas]

Good thing I hedged my bets.

Tu payeras pour ça au café Jeudi!

A+

Andreas

[Stoffel]

Andreas,

There wont come monuments for actions of the Germans by the Dutch government,however all remaining signs are preserved and funds are committed to keep them in shape,like PAINFBAT said as a warning for the future.

I can say that cause I saw most of them,relics of wars.

Drawings from soldiers(including swastikas)buildings,eagles and so on.

Now,this monument wasnt that big,it cant be seen from the road.

It wasnt a NAZI monument but one for soldiers who fought.

Remember in Russia the soldiers were seen as liberators,only after the SS and the occupationtroops came in the knew better.

All I did was think and act as a soldier,feeling ashamed a monument for brave soldiers who died far from home is broken down.

I mentioned a link,and after reading it everybody can have his opinion and do something or not.

No use in attacking me or hijacking my topic.

I know you feel like some sort of a god here on the forum,keep acting that way.

Like PAINFBAT and others I am fed up with your behaviour.

Goodbye.