istari Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Was reading through some older CM:BB forum postings, and came across a request for CMX2 (the next gen engine) to be set in a Cold War environment. That idea got my blood boiling in a way that another NW Europe WWII setting simply doesn't. I think between the past few years of CM:BO, CM:BB, IL-2, Medal of Honor:AA, and the upcoming Call of Duty, I'm just beginning to get a little worn out with the WWII setting. It's been a great ride, but a scent of staleness is entering the air. I first recognized this feeling of "combat fatigue" when I heard the new Freedom Force game (a great game if you've never played it), would be "FF vs. The Third Reich". I just felt tired of another setting with Nazis and Hitler as the bad guys. I'm sure I'll enjoy CMAK, but I do hope that BFC has plans to take this brilliant tactical system and bring it to new theaters and time periods. Am I the only one that is feeling a little burned out on WWII? Istari [ October 20, 2003, 05:08 AM: Message edited by: istari ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 I would like to see WW I or Napoleon time warfare, but i think that would be hard to play on the CM scale because those wars used mostly HUGE amount of infantery attacks so CM would have to increase the max units used which would increase the minimum specs for pc dramatically. But WW II is my favourite war period so i wont be sad if CM sticks to WW II Monty [ October 20, 2003, 05:18 AM: Message edited by: Monty ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 I tend to vary my PC gaming between wargames and lots of other genres so I never really get burned out but I definitely see what you're saying. WW2 seems to get way more than its fair share of coverage for wargames, or at least the better/more popular wargames and I'd like to see something different occasionally. Having said that if it's a good game the setting shouldn't make much of a difference. Look at STW. I mean who the heck knew or even cared about shogun wars in ancient Japan but the game was a hit anyway because it was basically a good game. I'd certainly like to see CMX2 have the ability to model more modern conflicts but given the quality of the CM games I'm willing to bet that I'll enjoy CMX2 just as much even if they do stick to WW2 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipanderson Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Istari, hi, I could well be the culprit when it comes to the posts asking for CMX2 to be Cold War. I have posted a few times lobbying for it. I will not waste every ones time by giving the full rant in favour of the Cold War but will just restate a quick few points. Firstly, there are some who are anti the idea of anything other then WWII. Their objection to the Cold War being that the balloon never did really go up, there was no WWIII and 3rd Shock Army did not storm the Fulda Gap. I understand this view. However, with the exception of just a very few engagements in the Arab Israeli wars, there have been no truly mechanised/armoured clashes, between near equals, since WWII. (I recently read up on the Arab Israelis wars in some very fine new books, and the number of armoured clashes really are very few in number and duration.) At least in the Cold War the armies did really exist on a scale equal to WWII. I should also add that my major interest is WWII; the books I am currently reading are all WWII. So I would be very keen to return to WWII, after one Cold War game. However, it would be refreshing to have a change, just for one game, then back to WWII. One major reason is that a lot of the fun of wargames, and military history in general for me, is the technology. I would love a chance to read up and study, with a purpose , the technology of the Cold War. Just how good, or bad, was the T72 against NATO, late 70s tanks? What was the hit probability of a Saggger? and so on…. Happily, all the information is out there, there really are no secrets with even 1990 equipment, let alone 1970s and 1980s which is what I am hoping for. All good fun, All the best, Kip. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Originally posted by istari: Am I the only one that is feeling a little burned out on WWII? Nope. I've been lobbying for a CMWR (Combat Mission War of the Rings) as long as I can remember but so far all my entreaties have fallen on deaf ears. Failing that, Falklands, Vietnam, Korea, WWI, Victorian-Era Colonial combat, or even near-future hypotheticals would be great. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Originally posted by kipanderson: with the exception of just a very few engagements in the Arab Israeli wars, there have been no truly mechanised/armoured clashes, between near equals, since WWII. Wasn't there a pretty serious armoured/Mech clash between India and Pakistan in the 1960s? (where the outcome was in doubt) I'm embarrassed not to know for sure myself, but I do recollect something along those lines. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeinzBaby Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 If anyone can remember the "Strategy and Tactics" boardgames of the late seventies and eighties, they published what I thought was the best 'cold war' Simulation out, *Mech War II* Bn/regt level game with the manouver elements being Platoons. BF.C system could work well in this.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sivodsi Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 T55s vs Pattons and Centurians: Bring it on! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 To answer the original question, no, I'm not getting burnt out on WW II as far as CM goes. I wouldn't mind seeing BFC take on the post-WW II era when and if they feel up to it, but I'm not about to try to pressure them into it. Right now, they are working on WW II because they've indicated that's what interests them the most. As such, I think they are more likely to apply themselves to perfecting the game engine, rather than just shoving it out the door because they are sick and tired of the damn thing. When they are ready to try either expanding the game engine into the modern era, or creating a new engine that will be better able to depict that kind of combat, then will be the time to turn them loose on it. We'll get better games that way. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefly Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Well WW2 is not my favourite period and I'd like to see something as good as CM for earlier periods, but WW2 is BFC's favourite period and doing wargames is as much a labour of love as a business venture, so I'm happy for BFC to carry on with WW2 and hope someone else does the same for the ACW or Napoleonic Wars. [ October 20, 2003, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: Firefly ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Welcome to the Revolution, Comrade istari. Led by Comrade Anderson, we aim to persuade, cajole and whinge for the production of a cold war Combat Mission. Can you not just see the ATGWs slowly snaking across the map? I know I can. If I could post what I'm seeing in my minds eye, I'm sure we'd get few more converts to the cause. As you can tell, I'm quite enthusiastic about the idea. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: To answer the original question, no, I'm not getting burnt out on WW II as far as CM goes. I wouldn't mind seeing BFC take on the post-WW II era when and if they feel up to it, but I'm not about to try to pressure them into it. Right now, they are working on WW II because they've indicated that's what interests them the most. As such, I think they are more likely to apply themselves to perfecting the game engine, rather than just shoving it out the door because they are sick and tired of the damn thing. When they are ready to try either expanding the game engine into the modern era, or creating a new engine that will be better able to depict that kind of combat, then will be the time to turn them loose on it. We'll get better games that way. Michael Sorry Michael but I don't understand your post. After CMAK comes out the existing CM engine is effectively dead and BFC are then going to work on CMX2, which will be a completely new engine and therefore theoretically capable of doing anything they want it to. I'm not saying it shouldn't be WW2 but if they decide to make it post WW2 there's nothing stopping them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Tondu Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Anyone getting tired of WWII settings? No way Jose. I say that CMx works wonderfully with WWII and I can't wait for CMAK. Napoleonics would be fun. (No, you don't need to represent every man in a battalion on the screen. A two figure company like with the miniatures rule set "Empire V" would work very nicely indeed.) ACW would be cool too. [ October 20, 2003, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Le Tondu ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzertruppe Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Nope.... WW2 has always been my favorite gaming platform. Partly because when I was growing up heroes like Patton, Audie Murphy,ect were recognized "as" heroes. When I was a teen there was Korea...then Viet Nam,The Gulf War,Iraq....and no heroes...thanks to the protesters and politics or the term "I'll see you in court". The movie "Saving Pvt Ryan" brought a whole new generation of WW2 games and new players to this great hobby. Although the market is overwhelmed by all the new WW2 games always being released I could never get tired of playing the next "Stalingrad" or "Battle Of The Bulge" game just like the folks who wait for the next "Star Wars" game. :cool: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salkin Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 I'm not tired of WW2. I really wouldn't mind seeing another CMBO or CMBB (or maybe a combination of the two). WW2 is great for a game like this. Why ? Because you have all of the toys but they are not so sofisticated. Today you just push a button and somebody 5km away dies from a missile... Another example : In WW2 infantry was still very efficient but IR and other new technology would make things very hard for regular infantry when there are tanks about. Regarding napoleonic era and so on , there just isn't enough vehicles and other toys to play around with . In other words, WW2 is a fun and relatively balanced setting for CMx. //Salkin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 No. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 For me I would love to see Israeli-Arab Wars, 1948 to Present. To see the affect of technology on the battlefield as time progressed. MikeT 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Pah. IR was mostly active for a while, after that it didn't have that much range vs. infantry. Infantry behind 18" of wet earth would still have been mostly invisible. 15yrs after WWII and the tactics and technology was still mostly similar - tanks fired from a halt, ATGWs were no more powerful that ATGs - indeed, towed ATGs were still in service into the 70s. Shermans and M3 HTs fought in Sinai. Cold War would not be fought with todays tech, like Javelin and Challenger 2 - even Milan and Chobham armour would only appear right at the end. And there would be more tanks and assorted AFVs 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeatEtr Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 No offence, but if all you do in your spare time is read WWII and play WWII, then odds are, you will eventually get burned out. Like was mentioned above by someone else, you gotta vary the type of games you play. Because if all i read and played was WWII stuff, then i would have gotten sick of it long ago. Try games like Tron 2.0, Vietcong, Raven Shield, OpFlashpoint or Max Payne2 which just came out and has received great reviews. All im saying is that there alot of good games out there that have nothing to do with WWII. But yeah, i do agree, WWII themed games are dime a dozen nowadays. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeatEtr Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 double post [ October 20, 2003, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: MeatEtr ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wisbech_lad Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 CMPlayer Battle of Chawinda 1965 - armoured meeting engagement. M48's and Shermans vs Centurians, Shermans and AMX13's. 25pdrs on both sides. http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunker/5040/map4.html - a nice map http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Patton2.html - Indian POV http://www.defencejournal.com/2001/mar/chawinda.htm - Pakistani POV I have always thought that Airborne Assault engine would model these battles well. But a bit of a black hole for wargaming - though TAOW did have a scenario on Chawinda. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siege Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Personally, I had always thought that the CM engine would be a perfect format for the Warhammer40K line of games. Would be a lot easier than the rare chances I get to actually get my figures out and play. -Hans 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pud Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 I doubt I will ever experience "burn out" on WW2. I havent yet after 35+ years of playing and reading about it. I would expect however that CM will progress outside WW2, eventually. Napoleonic Wars would be interesting, as would WW1. IMHO infantry tactics would play a bigger part in these sorts of battles (game wise) than more recent conflicts and so would be more interesting to play. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 I, too, will probably never 'burn out' on WWII play. Generally speaking, I think WWII-based games will always be my first choice. That doesn't mean I wouldn't enjoy a cold war (or WWI, or Napoleonic, or whatever) CM, though. . . Cheers, YD 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sokal Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Originally posted by MikeT: For me I would love to see Israeli-Arab Wars, 1948 to Present. To see the affect of technology on the battlefield as time progressed. MikeT Well...I've done some '48 and '49 Negev to Sinai scenarios in TOAW and HPS Middle East. The problems are with the maps and getting a handle on the OOBs and such things as the Israelis figuring out how to find and refurbish Roman roads (which would not be a problem in a CM Palestine 1948-9). In 1948-49, the technology is an odd mix of WWII gear. I guess that's good if you'r not tired of WWII. Both sides had some French Hotchkis tanks for example. The Israelis had Bf-109s and Spitfires etc. etc. Another interesting aspect of the 1948-49 fighting is that both sides had a very wide range of troops in terms of training and organization and these varied wildly over time. The Israeli/Yushiv Palmach and the Transjordanian Arab Legion were both first-rate professional forces while the Egyptians and most of the ex-Haganah were fairly well-trained and equiped and in many cases brilliantly led and then both sides also had plenty of less well-trained and well-armed forces as well. But...as for World War II...every new game is a new version of WWII. The CM series version is the most interesting I've seen. [ October 20, 2003, 11:33 PM: Message edited by: Sokal ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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