John Kettler Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 The historical accounts talk about the difficulties of desert combat regarding reading the ground, orienting on a map, marches, etc. After only a few QBs and doing some RoW IV setups, I'm a believer. It's much harder now to read the visually subtle, nearly contrastless ground, and level 1 is a must almost constantly while deploying forces. Throw in dawn with fog and it becomes really challenging. One scenario took forever simply because I had so much difficulty reading the terrain well enough to lay out positions where everyone was in command. Time and again I'd find myself with orphaned squads after carefully placing my troops in what I thought were well sited defenses. I suspect that players who get good in the CMAK desert will find a revisit to CMBO or CMBB a cakewalk when it comes to reading the ground. Am beginning to understand why some are screaming for grids or contour plots. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnifeForkSpoon Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 Have you played Cleopatra's Garden? It's on the disk. At first pass, it looks simple enough. Just drive across the dessert to the oasis and surely there'll be a scrap. But down at level one there are WONDERFUL dunes and gullies and wazi's (sp?). It's so much fun. You can approach the objectives almost unobserved (if not undetected, as the dust clouds are SO obvious). But I agree. I've spent almost the entire game plotting my advance from level 1. Even shifting up just one level is not good enough. The subtle ground level varaiations are soon lost. Great scenario, however. :-D KFS 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 Originally posted by John Kettler: The historical accounts talk about the difficulties of desert combat regarding reading the ground, orienting on a map, marches, etc. After only a few QBs and doing some RoW IV setups, I'm a believer. It's much harder now to read the visually subtle, nearly contrastless ground, and level 1 is a must almost constantly while deploying forces. Throw in dawn with fog and it becomes really challenging. One scenario took forever simply because I had so much difficulty reading the terrain well enough to lay out positions where everyone was in command. Time and again I'd find myself with orphaned squads after carefully placing my troops in what I thought were well sited defenses. I suspect that players who get good in the CMAK desert will find a revisit to CMBO or CMBB a cakewalk when it comes to reading the ground. Am beginning to understand why some are screaming for grids or contour plots. Regards, John Kettler If you have a decent paint program, simply take the 20 "ground" tiles for each set and tint them in contrasting colours, or alternately, adjust the brightness and contrast on each level, until you get the desired effect. Below are Treeburst's War Room Mod, and my own ASL Terrain Mod. They ain't pretty, but you'll have a much better feel for the ground than is possible in 20 different sand coloured elevation tiles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted February 16, 2004 Author Share Posted February 16, 2004 MD, Pretty wild! The first one looks like modern art, and the other one looks like a perverse Go board. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy Lurking Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 More thoughts on terrain I see.. Playing around in the Map Editor, it is possible to enhance the visual aspect of the game at a small cost to "realism": Basically what I try to do when creating a flatish desert type map is to line the beds of depressions/waddis with 'brush' tiles, leading into 'soft ground', 'marsh' and 'pool' tiles at the lower point. The upper sides can be 'rock' or 'rocky' tiled especially on the outside bends. (Anyone know the BMP no. of the "rocky' tile - not the 640 one? I would like to make it a bit more visually rocky) For the otherwise mostly flat areas I put 'brush' in the depressions and 'rock' around /on-top of bits that rise up. All of this does make it easier to read the terrain, but for a truly featureless sandy desert it looks like we hve to play the hard way. Of course for summer/autumn battles this is not so realistic! However I really prefer not to play on maps that tend to abstract the reality i.e., grids or colourful map tiles or even "Going" with "base on', 'Trees off' etc. as IMHO the appeal of this game owes a lot to its immersion factor. As I have said before herein lies a challenge for the CM next generation programmers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 Interesting suggestions. On custom maps it always looks good if you integrate the contours with the type of cover. For example you can always have pines on south facing slopes up to a certain altitude and trees on the north slopes. Soft ground at the low points etc. Doing this sort of thing systematically would probably support the eye in reading the contours, though I never thought of it that way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kapitein KAB Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 This is starting to become my objection against CMAK; you can spend 30 minutes micromanaging your forces during 1 turn, due to reading the terrain. Because I lack the time to play TCP/IP I always play PBEM, and time is on your side then. Spending 30 minutes on 1 turn (not every turn ofcourse) kinda takes the realism of combat out of the game, because there are no "snap decisions" anymore. Terrific game anyways, but I'm definitely going to play TCP/IP soon; chaos of battle and overreacting to setbacks must make the game interesting. PBEM is still very interesting but more chess-like. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sand digger Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Originally posted by Kapitein KAB: This is starting to become my objection against CMAK; you can spend 30 minutes micromanaging your forces during 1 turn, due to reading the terrain. Because I lack the time to play TCP/IP I always play PBEM, and time is on your side then. Spending 30 minutes on 1 turn (not every turn ofcourse) kinda takes the realism of combat out of the game, because there are no "snap decisions" anymore. Terrific game anyways, ..................... Yeh, agree entirely. The time aspect gets right out of kilter with reality, particularly in attack. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junk2drive Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 this doesnt help the desert sand problem. i have noticed using cmbo terrain in cmak, the tiles get stretched. it creates a pattern. look at the normandy screenies at my site. it is magua's subdued grass from his normandy mod. same with tom's tbm ardennes snow. just a thought. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipanderson Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Hi, It has long been on my wish list for CMX2 to have a toggled terrain grid. Such that one could play with the grid turned on in the orders phase, but turn it off during the one minute movies. During the first run through of the movie I always like to have all settings at their most realistic, so that everything looks at its best. All the best, Kip. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Originally posted by sand digger: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kapitein KAB: This is starting to become my objection against CMAK; you can spend 30 minutes micromanaging your forces during 1 turn, due to reading the terrain. Because I lack the time to play TCP/IP I always play PBEM, and time is on your side then. Spending 30 minutes on 1 turn (not every turn ofcourse) kinda takes the realism of combat out of the game, because there are no "snap decisions" anymore. Terrific game anyways, ..................... Yeh, agree entirely. The time aspect gets right out of kilter with reality, particularly in attack. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 I've actually come to enjoy CM's micromanagement. It's like a game within the game. The table top guys spend lots of time painting miniatures. We spend lots of time micromanaging. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. There is nothing quite like a beautiful CM convoy. Better yet, two convoys going in opposite directions on the same road, or managing a busy intersection as if there were an MP directing traffic. It can be done; but you have to get into it, and be willing to spend lots of time on orders that have nothing really to do with tactics, other than quick efficient shifting of forces on roads. TCPers could never do it. Treeburst155 out. Treeburst155 out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sand digger Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Originally posted by Ron: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by sand digger: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kapitein KAB: This is starting to become my objection against CMAK; you can spend 30 minutes micromanaging your forces during 1 turn, due to reading the terrain. Because I lack the time to play TCP/IP I always play PBEM, and time is on your side then. Spending 30 minutes on 1 turn (not every turn ofcourse) kinda takes the realism of combat out of the game, because there are no "snap decisions" anymore. Terrific game anyways, ..................... Yeh, agree entirely. The time aspect gets right out of kilter with reality, particularly in attack. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Cairns Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Of course the other arguement is that reading terrain in the desert is bloddy difficult, I take Bravo Two Zero with a pinch of salt but there are plenty of examples of experienced troops getting cut up because they moved somewhere they thought was safe but wasn't. You seem to be suggesting that the game be fixed so that you can guide units in like cruise missiles and avoid all that grubby messy stuff the infantry on the ground have to face. For me the great thing about CM in general is that it's about here you are this is what you,ve got now get on with it. Peter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junk2drive Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 most turn based, top down games have toggle on off grid. when you are learning the game it is helpfull. i turn them off. i dont play desert scens right now cuz im not yet good enough at this game for long range planning. even in wooded hilly battles i lose tanks from long range fire. i dont think this discussion should be about playing styles, but the ability to have a tool choice to increase the fun. just like extreme fow, when you are good enough. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kapitein KAB Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 doesn't everybody play extreme FOW? Isn't extreme the most realistic? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junk2drive Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 lol, i cant find my own troops with winter camo in the trees and snow. even though im a rookie, i play with full fow. and no grid. but thats my choice. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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