Has anyone made a Cold War mod?

[ErikinWest]

Just thinking it would be really cool. Americans vs Soviets in the 60's.

Cheers,

Erik

[mike8g]

You can only change texture graphics and sounds.

The 3D models and the unit statistics are hardcoded.

No way to change them.

Thus a "Mod" for CM is not comparable with a mod for a 3D shooter where you can change almost everything.

Marcus

[Darryl]

I personally feel a version of CM depicting the cold war era in Europe would ROCK! Not a mod, but a complete game. I love WWII, but for God's sake! let's please have a little variety! It would not take TOO much work for Battlefront to do a cold war version of CM. ATGMs, and NBC warfare might be a challenge, but airpower could still be somewhat abstacted as it is currently, without really taking anything away from the game as a whole. PLEASE Battlefront! Is there ANY chance of a cold war era version of CM?

I for one would gladly pay a LOT for this.

Thank you.

[flamingknives]

D'oh! Do a search! Read the Bones Threads!

If a cold war game was to be done, it would use the CMX2 engine, which is designed to be more suited to producing new games more rapidly.

And yes, a cold war-turned-hot game would be excellent.

[kipanderson]

Hi,

Ok, any excuse will do A chance to post my standard Cold War rant!

“OK, I admit it; I am the most unhinged fan of the idea of the Cold War as the first game with CMX2.

But I am not entirely unhinged in that, overall, WWII remains my major “hobby” interest. Just to prove the point, the books I am currently reading are the David Glantz big item version on the Battle for Leningrad, Hell’s Gate by Douglas Nash, and Accounting for War by Mark Harrison, on the Soviet war time economy… all are stunning books. However… I do like a change.

I am old enough to go back to the high water mark of war games as a mass hobby, if it ever was a mass hobby, the second half of the seventies. In those days it was all a matter of Squad Leader and the “one hex to one mile” operational games. Most were WWII games, but every now and then I and my wargame chums would turn to Cold War games. The change was hugely good fun. Change is good.

One of the most appealing aspects of a Cold War version of CM is the opportunity to become wildly nerdish, enthusiastic, about technology from a different era. I have to confess to sitting at home trying working out armour penetrations equations some twenty odd years ago, so I am not quite sane. I greatly enjoy the detail of the technology of military matters. Subscribe to Jane’s military journals in the same way some people subscribe to car magazines. But I suspect that many would join me in finding the study of T62s/T72s/T80s/M60s and M1s fun… for a while… as a change from WWII. What could a 1975 RPG7 penetrate… and what could it not penetrate… and so on. And the tactical implications. Then back to WWII for the second game in the CMX2 series.

One objection some have to the idea is that the Cold War never became hot. However, at least the armies on each sides of the Iron Curtain were real. The problem with a contemporary setting for a version of CM is that even the armies do not exist. In the Cold War there were WWII scale armies lined up, now the latest versions of tanks, or AFVs in general, can often be counted in tens., a few of hundreds at most. For a version of CM you need two, or more nations, lined up against each other in roughly the same ball park in military technology. At this point I should stress that Soviet technology certainly was the equal of that in the west up to the end of the Cold War.. 1989… overall. The mistake many make.. almost everyone in fact… is to compare a “1970s” model T72 to a late “1980s” western tank. If you compare the model of the T80U introduced in the same year as the 120mm gunned M1, 1985, you will find the T80U is near immune all forms of ammunition used by the M1 until the end of the 1980s. Over the forward arc. And.. yes.. this was confirmed by US sources who tested one in the early 1990s. I could give many similar examples.

Of course this is really addressed to BFC as I recon they will simply produce the game that most appeals to them, most takes their imagination. I have a feeling that the guys at BFC really have achieved the ultimate goal of many… they really do spend their time doing what would be their hobbies if they were not paid for what they do. Life does not get much better… in an imperfect world.

My hope is that one or more of them may be a secret… or not so secret… Cold War fan. ”

All good fun,

All the best,

Kip.

[Darryl]

Bravo! And for anyone else out there with even a minor interest in a what if "world war III" scenario...Might I suggest a couple of excellent books?

"Team Yankee" by Harold Coyle

"The Third World War, August 1985" By General Sir John Hackett Yes the same one who commanded the 4th parachute Brigade at Arnhem. And he commanded the British Army of the Rhine in the late 60's. So he knows of what he writes. This is an oldie, published in the late 70's but by far the best novel on the subject EVER. So well worth searching for.

And of course,

"Red Storm Rising" by Tom Clancy

There are many others but if those three don't create a burning desire to play a good WWIII game nothing will. LOL

Have a wonderful time!

[aka_tom_w]

UM

Yeah But

(and no I have not read very much about this)

Wasn't that whole battle/engagment supposed to have been decided by NATO helicopters and air superiority?

I thought that whole thing was not at all real tank battle but an air superiority duel to see which side's helicopters had the air cover, protection and time to eliminate all the other side's tanks?

(I though both sides anti tank missiles both air to ground and ground to ground would make that whole idea of a big tank battle into mostly a missile range duel) :confused:

discuss and or debate..

If not..

Why not...

-tom w

Originally posted by Darryl:

Bravo! And for anyone else out there with even a minor interest in a what if "world war III" scenario...Might I suggest a couple of excellent books?

"Team Yankee" by Harold Coyle

"The Third World War, August 1985" By General Sir John Hackett Yes the same one who commanded the 4th parachute Brigade at Arnhem. And he commanded the British Army of the Rhine in the late 60's. So he knows of what he writes. This is an oldie, published in the late 70's but by far the best novel on the subject EVER. So well worth searching for.

And of course,

"Red Storm Rising" by Tom Clancy

There are many others but if those three don't create a burning desire to play a good WWIII game nothing will. LOL

Have a wonderful time!

[MikeyD]

CMAK's got all the late war Shermans and Chaffees, CMBB's got all the late war Russian, CMBO's got Comets and Pershings. But you simply can't combine 'em!

Maybe an early Cold War game will come out of CM2X, right after they release that Space Lobsters game.

[flamingknives]

*Cracks knuckles*

Cold war would be good. It wouldn't be the the long-range slug-fest people claim, simply because it isn't possible to attain those sorts of ranges in central Europe. The terrain restricts Line of Sight down to 2km or less, and early ATGMs could be suppressed and rendered ineffective while the missile was in flight, which could be a fairly long time.

All potential sides had significant numbers of AAA and SAMs, and helicopters are tricky things to use.

WWII was mostly decided by artillery, but that's not the game most of us play when we start up CM

[MikeyD]

"It wouldn't be the the long-range slug-fest people claim"

As an example just take any CM Europe scenario out there and see which ones will have extended ranges optimal for your HOT and Swingfire missiles. Central Germany didn't exactly get any more open between 1945 and 1965. As a matter of fact, the minimum range for some of the older missiles (as much as 300m!) would really be a pain on a typical CM map! I'd love to try a close-in game using M60A2 'Starships'.

[ January 24, 2005, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[Amedeo]

I have to admit I'd pay a lot of money for a CM game featuring Cold War battles in central Europe. I would not mind the exact timeframe, since the '50s, '60s, '70s or '80s are all quite interesting years. But IMHO having the possibility to toy with hardware from, say, 1965 to 1985 would be terrific!

OK, OK, you're not obliged to make a Cold War game, so... just give me a game where I can command a T-64B platoon!

[Bone_Vulture]

What is this craze about post-WW2 conflicts? I feel like a conservative here.

[MikeyD]

WWII lasted 5 years (6 or 7 if you want to split hairs). Post-D-Day conflict lasted well under a year. Postwar conflicts have been going on for the past 60 years! That's exponentially more material to mine. How many times can a feller outflank a Panther in a hedgerow?

[flamingknives]

More toys is part of it.

New tactical challenges due to different weaponry and mobility.

[Bone_Vulture]

Meh, I just think that wire guided rockets and targeting computers lack to rugged feel of crude WW2 equipment.

By the way - I read from a Finnish army paper that Poland still has some post-WW2 era 85mm AT guns in reserve! :eek:

Apparently they maintain a function as an effective weapon against light armor.

[gibsonm]

Originally posted by Amedeo:

I have to admit I'd pay a lot of money for a CM game featuring Cold War battles in central Europe. I would not mind the exact timeframe, since the '50s, '60s, '70s or '80s are all quite interesting years. But IMHO having the possibility to toy with hardware from, say, 1965 to 1985 would be terrific!

OK, OK, you're not obliged to make a Cold War game, so... just give me a game where I can command a T-64B platoon!

Grab a copy of TacOps!

[aka_tom_w]

I know Kip just can't wait to reply to this thread

BUT I think he has a few technical challenges to overcome with this computer at home first.

Hopefully he will be back online soon.

-tom w

[hellfish]

I would sell a kidney for a game that put me in a Cold War gone hot circa 1980-1990. Especially if it would include the Turkish front, Norway, Denmark and any other potential flashpoints outside of the Fulda Gap.

[Amedeo]

Originally posted by gibsonm:

Grab a copy of TacOps!

I already did.

But when the detail and chrome of CM will be blended with the hardware and SOPs of TacOps we'll have a killer game! I hope CMx2 will allow us to see and play such a game.

[vincere]

Cold war version would be fantastic! For me the 1980s would be most interesting period, in some aspects the Soviets were ahead, in small arms and IFVs for example.

I would also buy a hypothetical modern combat version. eg. US vs China, or nationalist Russia in few years.

[aka_tom_w]

Once again....

(Sorry I have not read very much about this)

Wasn't that whole battle/engagment supposed to have been decided by NATO helicopters and air superiority?

I thought that whole thing was not at all a real tank battle but instead an air superiority duel to see which side's helicopters had the air cover, protection and time to eliminate all the other side's tanks? (NATO choppers were supposed to take out the numerically superior (by A LOT) Warsaw Pact tanks?)

(I though both sides anti tank missiles both air to ground and ground to ground would make that whole idea of a big tank battle into mostly a missile range duel)

So the REAL question here is will the NEW CMx2 engine let the player launch air to ground anti-tank missiles from fighter aircraft and helicopters? If not, then there is not really any potential (IMO) for anything approaching modern land combat warfare in the new game engine.... (the "Police Action" in Korea not being "modern" in this use of the the term modern) (AND my guess is they have ALREADY thought of this )

discuss and or debate..

If not..

Why not...

-tom w

AND yes, I am very much looking forward to Kip's forthcoming, informative and summative reply to these questions....

(I hope)

Originally posted by dust off:

Cold war version would be fantastic! For me the 1980s would be most interesting period, in some aspects the Soviets were ahead, in small arms and IFVs for example.

I would also buy a hypothetical modern combat version. eg. US vs China, or nationalist Russia in few years.

[ January 25, 2005, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[flamingknives]

'80s to '90s would be a bit tricky, as too much stuff is still classified for the extent that CM covers things. The '80s sees the introduction of much of the kit modern armies are still equipped with:

For example:

US: Abrams, Bradley

UK: Challenger, Warrior.

Details such as the reactive armour packs on the British tanks and the UK/US Composite armours, the exact performance of the various LAWs and ATGWs are mostly unavailable.

[Zimorodok]

"Red Army" by Ralph Peters. Absolutely the best. Fulda Gap, from the Point-of-View of the Sovs. Alternate History (without being overly Turtledove...)

I love that stuff. I have both of Hackett's books. The second "tome" brings in a lot of good details. I can clearly see how Clancy was influenced by it.

Zimorodok

Originally posted by Darryl:

Bravo! And for anyone else out there with even a minor interest in a what if "world war III" scenario...Might I suggest a couple of excellent books?

"Team Yankee" by Harold Coyle

"The Third World War, August 1985" By General Sir John Hackett Yes the same one who commanded the 4th parachute Brigade at Arnhem. And he commanded the British Army of the Rhine in the late 60's. So he knows of what he writes. This is an oldie, published in the late 70's but by far the best novel on the subject EVER. So well worth searching for.

And of course,

"Red Storm Rising" by Tom Clancy

There are many others but if those three don't create a burning desire to play a good WWIII game nothing will. LOL

Have a wonderful time!

[hellfish]

One excellent book that I think gets overlooked a lot is THE WAR THAT NEVER WAS by Michael Palmer. The premise is that long after the Cold War has ended, former US and Soviet leaders get together and wargame a "What if" scenario just to see who would have won.

It's excellent. Much faster paced that Clancy, a lot more coherent than Hackett (though I read that when I was 12 - but I still remember being instensely frustrated with it) and it doesn't just concentrate on central Europe. In fact, Germany is largely overlooked in favor of more exotic locales like Turkey, Scandanavia, North Africa , Korea, etc. You get to storm Bardufoss with Soviet paratroops, attack the Bosporous with Naval Infantry, defend Greece with the 10th Mountain Division and fight the Soviets in the Indian Ocean.

Great read - and it'll make you wanna fight those battles in CMX2.

[kipanderson]

Hi,

When it comes to the question of the possible of dominance of air power, had there been a Hot War in the ‘70s or ‘80s… the answer will surprise many.

When the Cold War ended in the early 90s the “west” suddenly had its hands on a couple of squadrons of Mig 29s. In the former East Germany. All the major western players sent teams over to asses them. The results were a major shock and “the” talking point through the early and mid 90s in military journals such as Jane’s and Monche’s Military Technology. I will not leave you in suspense, as most will have guessed what is coming next. In a series of mock combats and dogfights F15s and F16s were shot out of the skies. It was a massacre. The Mig 29s had a bigger flight envelope, their engines a higher power to weight ratio, “and” their missiles were way ahead.

You can imagine the shock this caused. It was assumed that in the most hi-tech of all military equipment the west would have the edge. There were endless articles on the subject in all the Jane’s journals for two or three years. In around ’96 I found myself having lunch, at one of the EDS sites in the UK , with a recently retired senior RAF officer. Of course, I asked him if the Soviet aircraft were really as good as the hype in the arms trade journals. It turned out that this guy had headed up the RAF team sent to Germany. Yes… they did perform as advertised, way head of their western counter parts. I then asked him about reliability. His answer was that they were designed for a short life, major overhauls were way more frequent than in western aircraft. Major engine rebuild every 600 hours as opposed to 6000 hours…. that sort of thing. However, within their designed, wartime, life cycles, as opposed to western peacetime life cycles , they were reliable enough.

There is more. About 4 months ago, over central India, SU30s and F15s took part in a series of simulated dogfights… you guessed it again… 9:1 in favour of the SU30s. I even read a defence from the US commander that the fight was not “fair” as the SU30s still have more advanced air-air missiles than the US. Note, by now, more than a decade later, most of the parts under the skin of both F15s and SU30s differ from their F15 and SU27 predecessors.

Coming back to the Cold War, the Soviets did also have the most extensive air defence systems and network. Add it all together and the most likely result is very heavy, and very early, losses of aircraft on both sides. With air assets spending the great majority of their time just trying to survive against the enemy’s air defence assets.

The dominance of air that you saw in the small wars of the ‘90s is due to the one sided nature of the wars. Largely 1970s air defences against aircraft with 1990s EW aids and such. Very like the land warfare in these small wars, “1970s” T70s against 1990s western tanks. From the point of view of the US and Britain this was all very good news. But it is not an indication of how a Cold War in the 70s or 80s would have gone.

The Soviets called the models they sold to countries other than Warsaw Pact members, “monkey models”. i.e. they tended to sell them without the more cunning bit attached.

BTW. flamingknives and I agree about most things, share the same enthusiasm for the Cold War.. but I disagree that not enough is known about 1980s equipment but we will leave that argument for another day…

One thing that is very much on my wish list is a weapons data editor. BFC have done a great job with CMX1, but currently one has to launch long campaigns to get weapons data changed in patches. This is a shame.

All the best,

Kip.