Question for the Battle of Budge experts

[Hans]

A query

In the unlikely event that the German offense had been more successful AND some units had gotten near Antwerp. Which units in the estimation of the knowledgeable would have been most likely to be the ones leading the spearhead up thru Belgium towards the critical port?

[Kingfish]

My guess would be the II SS Pz Corp, or maybe OKW reserves. The initial assaulting divisions would have been diverted to cover the flanks of the penetration, since the Volksgrenadier divisions would not have been able to keep up with the advance. So 1st SS Pz Corp would have held the northern shoulder from Elsenborn to Liege, and 47th Pz Corp the southern flank from Bastogne to Namur.

[simovitch]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

My guess would be the II SS Pz Corp, or maybe OKW reserves.

Agreed.

Although such an event was so unlikely it boggles the mind to even think about it.

Like, the anglo-american Allies would have had to throw in the towel before the germans got to Antwerp in order for the Germans to even get to Antwerp... (see what I mean? )

[Michael Emrys]

I always wonder what it is that makes some people desire that Germany won. Do they think a Nazi empire would have been great fun to live in?

Michael

[JasonC]

My guess is this one is more along the lines of, "I heard about this battle, that if the Germans hadn't been stopped they would have reached my home town. I know the terrain around my home town and want to do a what-if scenario featuring some of it. What German units would have been involved?"

My charitable reading of it.

[Hans]

Actually I was thinking of making a scenario (fictional of course).

It would have British troops defending in the vicinity of Wavre and a fall back to a final defense of the Hougoumont. Just needed a reasonable idea of what German unit MIGHT have gotten there.

Thanks for your answer Kingfish - may I ask for one more opinion? What unit of the OKW reserve? A SWAG would be sufficient!

Simovitch: Agreed highly unlikely - but I like the terrain around Waterloo. The British troops would have to be the Brigade of Guards of course!

Michael: If the Nazis had somehow won, it would have been a disaster of the first magnitude, leading to endless wars - could they have won? Not militarily but they had a faint hope if other Allied government had been as weak as the French. Once the war began and they didn't overrun Russia the long term economic factors were against them.

JasonC: close to the point - I was wondering if a remake of the Hougoumont defense using WWII Brits vs Germans might be interesting. Good infantry fight. A bit of extra color to get a "possible" unit from the Germans there.

Next question where were the Guards during the Battle of Bulge?

[Kingfish]

Originally posted by Hans:

Thanks for your answer Kingfish - may I ask for one more opinion?

It'll cost you a beer, but yeah, go ahead...

What unit of the OKW reserve? A SWAG would be sufficient!

AFAIK, OKW reserves were 9th Panzer and 15th PzGr divisions. The Fuhrer's Grenadier Brigade and 79th VG division may have been included as well.

Next question where were the Guards during the Battle of Bulge?

Oops, two beers and counting...

Guards Armored was assigned the defense of the Meuse river line from Namur to Huy, and maybe even as far up as Liege, although I remember seeing a map way back when that showed the 51st Highland division being responsible for the city's defense.

BTW, Wavre is on the E411, the main highway connecting Namur to Bruxelles, and as such would have been in the hypothetical area of operations for 5th Pz Army. Therefore, it would have most likely been OKW reserves (as opposed to II SS Pz Corp) that would have seen action there.

See this map

[Hans]

Thanks Kingfish for the great information. Look like the elements of the 9th Panzers and Fuhrer's Grenadier Brigade will meet elements of the Guards along the road from Charlteroi to Brussels - at the Hougoumont of course....

[kawaiku]

Kingfish, thats a helluva a line that the 5th would have to defend. BTW I have noticed that there is not a whole lot of info on the British side of things above the bulge where they were operating? I always here about the bulge and the other one "winter storm" or whatever it was that took place in the south. And yes the info was great too. Another question is what if it was launched just south of Eindhoven? I remeber reading somewhere that by this time the British were struggling with replacement problems and such and soon after the bulge the americans(probably because of the pacific campaign) too but if it was launched against the weary brits(considering market garden just ended) it might have been different. But then again I have no idea on the operations that went on up there so its just an idea or a thought, however you like to put it.

[wunwinglow]

.... so D-Day failed, the Germans captured all the landing craft, the US fell back to mainland America, the UK collapses, and in 1947 Hitler launches a trans Atlantic invasion of the US.

Can I have a scenario of the SS storming the White House, please?

I wonder what sort of uniforms they would have worn?

wun (tongue firmly in cheek....)

[Kingfish]

Originally posted by kawaiku:

Another question is what if it was launched just south of Eindhoven? I remeber reading somewhere that by this time the British were struggling with replacement problems and such and soon after the bulge the americans(probably because of the pacific campaign) too but if it was launched against the weary brits(considering market garden just ended) it might have been different.

One of the reasons the Ardennes was chosen as the site for Op Wacht am Rhine was the ratio of allied forces to the front line. No where else were the allies spread so far to cover so much territory.

Not so in the north, where the British 2nd and US 9th armies enjoyed a greater concentration.

There is also the terrain in the area east Eindhoven to consider. Here you have the Peel marshes, which is even less suitable for a large scale offensive than the Ardennes.

Ironically enough, the Germans did launch an attack in that very area in late September, using the same divisions which became the OKW reserves for Op Wacht am Rhine. Their opponent - the US 7th armored division, the defenders of St. Vith. The lead up and attack closely resembled the much larger Ardennes offensive 2 months later. An American unit spread very thin to cover a wide front, in terrain assumed (incorrectly) to be unsitable for any enemy attack, was taken by surprise by the strong German offensive.

The signs for the attack were all there, including an increase in German patrolling and raids in the area, cross-border informants telling of large concentrations of German tanks and bridging equipment, and even the burgomeister of a village sitting square in the path of the upcoming assault telling his citizens to evacuate the town. Still, with all that the Americans got caught flat-footed. It was only the infusion of reserves, including British units, that eventually turned the tide and pushed the Germans back, but only after several days of intense action. The whole tihng reads like a mini-script for the battle of the Bulge.

[junk2drive]

Originally posted by wunwinglow:

.... so D-Day failed, the Germans captured all the landing craft, the US fell back to mainland America, the UK collapses, and in 1947 Hitler launches a trans Atlantic invasion of the US.

Can I have a scenario of the SS storming the White House, please?

I wonder what sort of uniforms they would have worn?

wun (tongue firmly in cheek....)

Look up Bannon DC's battle at TPG.

[Tagwyn]

Dorosh can do the unis!!! Tag

[Son of Hamchuck]

Not to belabor a hypothetical, but I wonder how close the German's might have got to Antwerp if the American resistance had been just a little less fanatical in some key places. It was an insane gamble of course, but instead of a relatively even distribution of breaks of fortune, what if a couple of them had fallen to the German's. Just two event's would have almost certainly give the German's the Meuse, early capture of Bastogne and Pieper's sucessful capture of an unguarded fuel dump. The first event was well within reasonable probabilities, the second simple anabashed luck. What were the theoretical limits of this battle given the Allies playing a competent but uninspired defense? No way of knowing of course (I read somewhere that some folks had wargamed this out using a pretty sophisticated computer program for the US military. I could never find details of what the outcomes were), but Hitler's crazy scheme had the potential to cause a lot more than the considerable havoc that it did. Maybe some scenarios for west of the Meuse aren't so far fetched.

[Kingfish]

I doubt they could have extended their lines that far out and not get cut off. As I said earlier, the VG divisions could not have kept up with the the advance. Note that 7th army, whose job it was to protect 5th Pz army's southern flank, only made it as far as Bastogne. Everything west of that was the responsibility of Pz Lehr, and they were busy themselves pushing for the Meuse as well as containing the Bastogne garrison. They could have committed part of the OKW reserves, but that would have weakened the final push into Bruxelles and Antwerp.

[Michael Emrys]

If the Germans had gotten to the Meuse, they would have found the British waiting on the other side, and defensive fighting was what the British did best.

Michael

[JasonC]

ffk - just horsefeathers, the farther they drive the fewer make it out alive. The allies put two armies on them within a week. Once they aren't fighting thin positions with their assault odds they get their clocks cleaned.

Meanwhile in January the Russians hit them with 300 divisions and half the front evaporates in days. If they were still brawling with Allied armor beyond the Meuse at that point, there is just less to send east to patch that collapse.

[Hans]

I think we could agree that a scenario consisting of German and British forces fighting over the grounds of the historic battlefield of Waterloo would be farfetched...like fictional

[Son of Hamchuck]

Kingfish,

I agree Antwerp ( or anywhere near it ), would be totally out of the question. IIRC, Model, while totally against the plan from the start, thought that an abreviated thrust in behind the US forces in the Aachen Salient had a chance of being sucessful. The fact that Panzer Lehr had to detach forces for Bastogne, and was delayed ( allowing the British time to defend the Meuse crossings ), gave up any chance for a coup de main. The delay doomed any chance they had to cross the Meuse. To have a chance to cross the Muese, they had to keep reasonably close to their timetable. They couldn't.

JasonC,

If you'll note, I referred to the mission being both insane and crazy as envisioned by Hitler. That doesn't mean that it wasn't possible for it to achieve limited objectives if certain conditions held. Hanging onto those objectives would have been a whole different matter. My hypothetical musing had nothing to do with what came after, simply how far could the Germans have reached given a couple of realistic what ifs. Then Han's could create some scenarios in good conscience:>).

[SgtMuhammed]

Lehr passed on a chance to take Bastogne by a coup de main, why do you think they would have been any more decisive at the Meuse.

[simovitch]

I think the most likely scenario that could have developed to throw the west front into temporary turmoil would be Eisenhower resigning as head of SHEAF because Montgomery was being such a pompous arse about the failure of the American Intelligence prior to the offensive. He was making it sound like the British had bailed the US out. A highly questionable assertion IMHO.

The resignation in fact almost happened. It took an unprecedented formal apology by Monty to cool down Eisenhower, who was ready to call Marshall.

[Sergei]

Why do you people have to ruin this thread with your yarnings about the Ardennes offensive?

Still waiting to see the Battle of Budge experts show up...

[J.R.]

I always wonder what it is that makes some people desire that Germany won. Do they think a Nazi empire would have been great fun to live in?

Michael

A desire to have some fun with alternative history does not necessarily indicate a desire for the German thousand year reich. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I have the Battlefront print of a Panther on my wall along with my various other decorations. Does this mean I am a facist?

Sheesh.

[Son of Hamchuck]

sgtgoody,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't they so far behind schedule that they really had no choice but to hope that follow on units( 7th Army in particular ) could crack the nut left in their rear. If they couldn't reach the Meuse, then the whole effort would be in vain( obviously it was in any event ).

simovitch,

Good point, I'd read the same thing.

Sergei,

Feel free to get the thread back on track. I think the Battle of the Budge expert just showed up.

J.R.,

If the panther poster has a swastica on it, then yes, you are a fascist :<).

[J.R.]

If the panther poster has a swastica on it, then yes, you are a fascist :<).

No swastika