CombinedArms Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 As we know, CMAK omits the (admittedly imperfect) bocage tile that was available in CMBO. Many have lamented the absence of such a tile when trying to create Normandy-centered scenarios. I have a suggestion for creating a bocage-like effect in CMAK that isn't perfect but works pretty well in most respects. Here's my suggestion: decide where you want the bocage and raise the elevation along that line by one terrain level (e.g. from 7 to 8); then put a line of "tall hedge" tiles on top of the raised terrain tiles. Tall hedge tiles (new in CMAK, AFAIK) are impassible to vehicles. Voila, instant bocage--for what is bocage but a series of enclosures made from raised embankments topped by tall hedges that are impassible to vehicles? If you want to create a defensively quite strong position, just place a trench on the embankment behind the hedge. Defenders without the trench have 22% exposure. Defenders with the trench have just 6% exposure, so the trench makes a real difference and creates, in fact, a really tough defensive nut to crack for an attacker. Both sides can fire through the bocage, but the defenders are much better protected, while attackers, in the open, suffer 56% exposure. What makes this setup less than perfect is that the bocage is in fact impassible to ALL vehicles. No Culin hedgerow tanks--but CMBO had the problem that ALL Allied tanks (including Brits, Poles,etc.) have the Culin device after July (?). One option if hedgecutting is essential to a scenario would be to put one scattered trees tile in where the breakthrough should be. Otherwise, I think this solution might work pretty well in a lot of bocage-type situations. In fact, I think it functions, overall, better than the CMBO bocage. I even wonder if BFC might have included the tall hedge as a quiet way of giving us our bocage w/o quite admitting it explicitly. [ January 07, 2004, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: CombinedArms ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 I saw the strangest thing relating to CMAK bocage the other day. I was playing a QuickBattle using the game's imported city map. The AI was playing Brits and I had a couple Panthers (heh heh). I saw a little Stuart duck out of sight between two buildings. Aha, I thought, I've got him now. A 'tall hedge' tile was spanning the gap between the buildings blocking the Stuart's escape. After a couple moves I had maneuvered my Panther to where I'd have a clear shot at the cowering Stuart, but he was nowhere to be seen! The tank had somehow managed to do the impossible and get through the tall hedge barrier. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Russian Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Originally posted by CombinedArms: Tall hedge tiles (new in CMAK, AFAIK) are impassible to vehicles. The only problem I see with your solution is that the tall hedge tiles are not even close to impassible to vehicles. While playtesting Barkmann's Corner, on The Proving Grounds, the Shermas go through tall hedge tiles like they are nothing. Panther Commander 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogdan Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Originally posted by CombinedArms: One option if hedgecutting is essential to a scenario would be to put one scattered trees tile in where the breakthrough should be. I really like your post CombinedArms ! Very interesting I would suggest that scattered trees tile could be put more randomly along the bocage line as bocage is not a "perfect" neat vegetal line. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Originally posted by MikeyD: The tank had somehow managed to do the impossible and get through the tall hedge barrier. What was the impossible part? Tall hedges don't stop tracked vehicles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombinedArms Posted January 7, 2004 Author Share Posted January 7, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MikeyD: The tank had somehow managed to do the impossible and get through the tall hedge barrier. What was the impossible part? Tall hedges don't stop tracked vehicles. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roach Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 As far as I can tell, the tall hedge in CMAK acts in much the same way as Bocage in CMBO - German vehicles can't pass through it but after July 44, Allied vehicles can. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Tall Hedges ARE Bocage. Allied tanks can pass through from July 44 onward... just like CMBO 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombinedArms Posted January 7, 2004 Author Share Posted January 7, 2004 Originally posted by Berlichtingen: Tall Hedges ARE Bocage. Allied tanks can pass through from July 44 onward... just like CMBO OK. Mystery is solved. Just took us a little while to figure it out, is all... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 How come Canadian tanks pass through them in December 1943, then? :confused: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugilist Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: How come Canadian tanks pass through them in December 1943, then? :confused: Is time of year a factor? I know LOS is different from season to season. Maybe pass-through-ability is too... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedy Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: How come Canadian tanks pass through them in December 1943, then? :confused: What are you doing still posting Dorosh, thought you were gone for good. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 OK then! So where are all those Normandy Scenarios we've all been so looking forward too!?? -tom w 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Originally posted by Berlichtingen: Tall Hedges ARE Bocage. Allied tanks can pass through from July 44 onward... just like CMBO Damn. Double damn. I'm building a map for some battles set in Tunisia, Apr 43, and have been using "tall-hedge" + "barbwire" to simulate cactus hedges and patches. Visually I think it looks great - especially where I've used a bunch of 'x' shapes next to each other (nice and thick) - but I'm going to have to rethink how to do this now since I need armour to be able to traverse the cactus. Mutter, mutter, mutter ... I'm already using scattered trees for orchards, which the cactus hedges enclose. Low hedges won't block LOS enough. Hmmm. Regards JonS BTW, Berli, I saw your post about my request for info relating to Takrouna last year, but I was travelling at the time so couldn't respond. Thanks for looking for me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombinedArms Posted January 7, 2004 Author Share Posted January 7, 2004 I think the following work around would do it: Just set up your scenario with units, map and terrain exactly as you want it. Save. Then go to Parameters and reset the date to July 1944 or later and the region to "All Combined". This should allow you to get the desert region and retain the earlier-war units, while also getting the ability of tanks to pass through hedges. Of course, it may just be Allied tanks who can do it, if it's just like CMBO... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 CA, yeah, that would work, but I wouldn't be happy with the date showing up at a year or two late Still, it might be the best bet. Cheers JonS 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow 1st Hussars Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: How come Canadian tanks pass through them in December 1943, then? :confused: The bocage recognizes our natural superiority. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Ah! I never thought to do date-sensitive bocage tests! I'm rushing home right now (after wasting all my day at work on the board ) to test this out. The assumption's always been no culin hedgecutters in CMAK. Wow, this is news! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Originally posted by MikeyD: Ah! I never thought to do date-sensitive bocage tests! I'm rushing home right now (after wasting all my day at work on the board ) to test this out. The assumption's always been no culin hedgecutters in CMAK. Wow, this is news! So this isn't a feature, it's a bug. Or in other words, it is a bit of dated code held over from CMBO that wasn't corrected. Shall I add it to the patch requests, then? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: So this isn't a feature, it's a bug. Or in other words, it is a bit of dated code held over from CMBO that wasn't corrected. Shall I add it to the patch requests, then? Uh, hold on there a minute and think about it. BFC may have intentionally put that code in as a service to players who wanted to make some Normandy battles in the new game. After all, people were crying for that and I got the impression that that's what the tall hedges were put in for. The thing about Canuckistanian armour getting through in Dec. '43 sounds like a bug though. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugilist Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 As I said, it could also be date sensitive for whatever reason, right? Or am I missing something? If I'm right I better get a plaque or something. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombinedArms Posted January 8, 2004 Author Share Posted January 8, 2004 Well, I tested both Canadian and American Shermans on tall hedges in Dec '43 and neither nationality can pass through tall hedges on that date, at least in my tests. They just run right up to the hedge, then try to go around it. Not sure why Micheal D is getting a different result. Or why he's in such a bad mood.... :eek: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Originally posted by CombinedArms: Well, I tested both Canadian and American Shermans on tall hedges in Dec '43 and neither nationality can pass through tall hedges on that date, at least in my tests. They just run right up to the hedge, then try to go around it. Not sure why Micheal D is getting a different result. Or why he's in such a bad mood.... :eek: I both smiled and winked, how could I possibly be in a bad mood. But since you asked, I had to deal with Canada Customs today. During working hours, meaning I had to use up vacation time to do it. To pick up an item that should have been delivered via regular mail but wasn't. Bad enough, but I went to the courier, then customs, THEN home to find an email cause the invoice was wrong, THEN back to customs, THEN to the courier company again. whew 3 hours later I get back to work. Boss was happy to see me! Boss was intrigued at my need to take care of private business ventures on their time!!! Actually, that's probably a red herring; I'm playing a Dec 43 scenario right now - I thought the enemy had moved through the tall hedge, but I may have remembered it wrong. I can test it also. I still think it is a bug, though, if it is not documented. Or is Easter Egg a happier word for it? Yes, let's call it an Easter egg. Okay, then we shall thank BFC instead of scorning them, and my patch request thread shall go unbumped. Happy Happy Joy Joy 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Originally posted by Konstantine: If I'm right I better get a plaque or something. That depends. If you're wrong, can I rip you to bloody gobbets and throw you to my pet piranhas in the moat? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: ...I had to deal with Canada Customs today.That's what you get for being born on the wrong side of the border. You need better planning for these things, Michael. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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