Improvised/Adapted Weapons in WWII

[CombinedArms]

Does anybody share my interest in the way so many weapons were adapted to unforeseen uses in WWII?--with often the adapted function ending up being equal to or perhaps even more important than the initial function? This happened in part because of the rapidly changing nature of the war conflicted with the long development times usually needed for weapons systems. If you couldn't develop a new weapon to meet the need, you adapted an existing weapon. I'm going to list some of my favorites and invite further comments and contributions:

1. P-51D long range escort fighter. Originally ordered by the Brits as a short range interceptor, this plane had poor high altitude performance until it got a new engine--the Rolls Royce Merlin. With the addition of two external drop tanks and an internal gas tank behind the cockpit, it was reborn as a long range escort fighter--a kind of fighter the US strategic airpower gurus had thought they didn't need when the war began.

2. 88mm ATG. Originally a flak gun, it became one of the great ATGs of the war.

3. P-47 fighter-bomber. Actually this stands for all the figther-bombers of the war--a category that didn't exist when the war began, it became one of the most important by war's end, including Thunderbolts, Tempests, Corsairs, Hellcats, and many others.

4. ME-110. A bust as a day-fighter, it became the Luftwaffe's most important night figther, and stands as well for other twin-engine fighters adapted to the night role.

5. 4.2 inch chemical mortar. Intended by the US to fire chemical weapons (in case the Germans ever did)--a smart US officer developed an HE charge an WP for it and it proved extremely effective firing those charges. It was never used to fire chemical weapons.

6. Sherman Firefly. Finding the Sherman's 75mm gun inadequate as an AT gun, the Brits jammed their superb 17-pder into the Sherman turret and created perhaps the best Sherman version of the war.

7. PT Boat torpedoes. They were initially issued WWI era torpedoes to be fired out of tubes mounted on the sides. These proved to be slow and unreliable. Some bright guy got the idea to mount aerial torpedoes on the side of the boat that would simply be dumped sideways overboard by a simple mechanism. This solution proved workable and became the standard torpedo for PT's. (Saw this on the History Channel last week--it was news to me.)

8. Stug IIIG. Heckuva good assault gun created by building on a PzIII chaissis (soon shown to be an inadequate tank) and adding more frontal armor and a good long gun. The PzIV similarly got a long lease on life by adding more frontal armor and a good long gun.

I'm sure there are more examples out there...

[Michael Dorosh]

Well if you believe Dale Dye and Steven Spielberg, the Hawkins anti-tank mine made a GREAT anti-personnel weapon!

The Canadian Ram tank was a bit of a bust (big, ungainly, armed only with a 6 pounder gun), but after August 1944 when the turrets were removed, they made terrific - and the world's first - fully tracked armoured personnel carriers. (Well, maybe the second, as the first Kangaroos were actually M7 Priests with the guns removed). Ram tanks were also used, in their turreted form, as Observation Post tanks for calling in artillery fire.

[ November 16, 2003, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Michael Emrys]

My nomination would be turning the B-25 medium bomber into a ground attack straffer through the expedient of putting more and more .50s in the nose. The same was done with the A-20 with somewhat less success and later on the Douglas (not Martin) B-26 with great success.

Michael

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

My nomination would be turning the B-25 medium bomber into a ground attack straffer through the expedient of putting more and more .50s in the nose. The same was done with the A-20 with somewhat less success and later on the Douglas (not Martin) B-26 with great success.

Michael

Was the 75mm cannon on B-25s also successful, in your estimation? I've seen pictures but never really read about them.

It does bring to my mind the YB-40 variant of the B-17; armed with extra machineguns as a super-escort (before the P51s mentioned above), they succeeded mostly in slowing down the bomber formations after they dropped their payload.

Sometimes more guns/bigger guns ain't always better...

[ November 16, 2003, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Wicky]

The Hobart funnies rank for me as the best 'Scrapheap Challenge' vehicles

"From persecution, victimization, and his incredible misemployment as a Home Guard corporal, Hobart's resurrection to a decisive command in the Allied armies is one of the more startling personal stories of the Second World War. "

The Little-Known Story of Percy Hobart

[ November 16, 2003, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Wicky ]

[Andreas]

I'd quibble with your '8)' CombinedArms. That is not how I understand the Stug as AT weapon was developed.

The Stug was a standard vehicle at war's start, with a 75L24 howitzer for direct infantry support in the assault. It was around sometime before the Panzer III became the mainstay of the Panzerwaffe, let alone became obsolete.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Was the 75mm cannon on B-25s also successful, in your estimation?

Not really. The not-especially-impressive range of the weapon, combined with a slow ROF meant that it only got off a couple of shots before it had to go round again. Plus the 75mm round was not all that deadly against its designated targets: shipping.

A number of the ones delivered with cannon had them removed in the field and replaced with a battery of .50s which were much more useful for AAA supression on the bomb run, and then used skip bombing as the primary shipkilling tactic.

Michael

[ November 16, 2003, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: Michael Emrys ]

[YankeeDog]

I would add the British Mosquito to the list.

The plane did a remarkably good job in a variety of roles, ranging from pathfinder to recon to night fighter to light bomber. It actually even did passably well as a straight-up day fighter, IMHO the only twin-engined fighter of WWII to do so.

All this, and the thing was made mostly out of wood, allowing the Brits to use the resources of the woodworking industry at a time when the metalworking industry in Britain was under heavy strain producing other war materiel.

What's more, even though it was made out of wood (or perhaps because it was), the Mosy was remarkably fast, maneuverable, and rugged. The light bomber carried no defensive armament - it wasn't need since it could outrun most German interceptors.

Cheers,

YD

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

I would add the British Mosquito to the list.

It actually even did passably well as a straight-up day fighter, IMHO the only twin-engined fighter of WWII to do so.

Ahem. Lockheed P-38 Lightning.

What's more, even though it was made out of wood (or perhaps because it was), the Mosy was remarkably fast, maneuverable, and rugged.

And tended to delaminate in warm, humid climates.

That said, the Mossie was indeed one of the outstanding aircraft of the war and one of my personal favorites.

Michael

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by YankeeDog:

I would add the British Mosquito to the list.

It actually even did passably well as a straight-up day fighter, IMHO the only twin-engined fighter of WWII to do so.

Ahem. Lockheed P-38 Lightning. </font>

[Michael Emrys]

Wow, Dorosh, I'm going to have to start thinking of you as fastest URL post in The Great White North!

:eek:

Michael

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

Wow, Dorosh, I'm going to have to start thinking of you as fastest URL post in The Great White North!

:eek:

Michael

Now, now, if I didn't know Bong's name in advance, I could never have googled it!

[Mr. Tittles]

Dueling 'Michaels', how .. amusing.. (queue Deliverance Music).

I would say that ASSAULT GUNS, for nations that could not afford turreted vehicles (but if they could, would know what to do with them), were a great aspect added to the WWII nature of warfare.

The Germans, pioneers in the item, differentiated them by giving them to the artillery branch initially. The expertise in direct fire HE benefitting but the easier task of AP fire following naturally.

The Soviets, followed, as warfare evolved on the biggest warfront for effective arms. In other words, They knew a good thing when they saw it.

The fact that a 75mm gun was put in a chassis (while it was and could be put in a tank), showed that these skillful, low profile vehicles had a true alter purpose. It was stealthy. It was meant to shoot things on to the target. It was not one to roar through barbed wire while blasting defenses to its sides..

The realitys of enemys tank productions let this weapon system's dvelopment keep pace with the demands of the battlefield. While effective HE placement gave way to armor destruction, the occasional assault was still shot on to succeed because of assault gun contributions!

A very good success story. Low on fuel demands, low on personnell demands, low in profile, low in weight and most of all..

(what was I saying?)

Oh yeah, they were good.

[ November 16, 2003, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[YankeeDog]

Michaels -

Damn. You got me. The P-38 would definitely be the best twin-engined fighter of the war.

The wierd thing is, usually forget to include the P-38 on my list of twin-engined fighters from WWII. I guess it's because it's whole design is do unorthodox. I sort of put it in a category of its own.

And agreed, glued wood probably isn't the best structural material in a really humid environment, but in the "Do what you can, with what you have, with what you are" category, I think the Mosy wins the prize. And in terms of versatility, it is certainly one of the best designs of the war, IMHO.

Cheers,

YD

[Mr. Tittles]

Oh yeah, 4.2 inch mortar/arty was unique and not allowed to be discussed here.

[von Lucke]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

Michaels -

Damn. You got me. The P-38 would definitely be the best twin-engined fighter of the war.

The wierd thing is, usually forget to include the P-38 on my list of twin-engined fighters from WWII. I guess it's because it's whole design is do unorthodox. I sort of put it in a category of its own.

Perhaps so, but there will always be a warm place in my heart for the P-61. (A bit of trivia: The recon version of the P-61 was designated the F-15).

[BulletRat]

Yeh ya never seem to hear about the P-61 for some reason, guess it just didn't see the amount of combat the P-51 did?

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by BulletRat:

Yeh ya never seem to hear about the P-61 for some reason, guess it just didn't see the amount of combat the P-51 did?

It came along about four years too late when there wasn't much left to shoot at in the dark, although it did make at least one crew ace, IIRC (in the Pacific). It might have made a helluva ground attack airplane if it had been modified for that mission, but not I suspect as good as the Douglas B-26.

Michael

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by Andreas:

I'd quibble with your '8)' CombinedArms. That is not how I understand the Stug as AT weapon was developed.

The Stug was a standard vehicle at war's start, with a 75L24 howitzer for direct infantry support in the assault. It was around sometime before the Panzer III became the mainstay of the Panzerwaffe, let alone became obsolete.

Sorry, I don't think I made myself quite clear on this. What I should have said was that the Stug started out as an infantry support weapon with the short HE chucker (75L24). Not much of an AT weapon, nor intended to be. The long gun and a bit of extra frontal armor turned it into a dangerous tank hunter, though it also continued to fill its role in infantry support. The same thing happened with the PzIV. With a short 75 early in the war, it was meant as an infantry support tank. With a long 75 and beefed up armor, it became a serious tank killer.

Regarding the P-38, it's interesting because of its different roles in different theatres. In the Pacific it served its intended role as an air superiority fighter and served it well. In the ETO, it had trouble at high altitudes and tended to be used in the fighter-bomber role. It wasn't intended for that, but it turned out to be a helluva an ordinance platform and with its range and speed became a good fighter-bomber. Speaking of adaptations, I keep wondering why the P-38 wasn't used more widely as a night fighter, during the wait for the P-61. It seems like it could have been fitted with a second seat for the radarman and given some radar, and it would have been great--it sure out-performed most of the other twin-seat fighters; ought to have been murder on the Me-110 or whatever the Japanese were using in the night role, and by 1943, not 1945. I think there were just a few improvised night P-38, but never a production model. Anyone know why this didn't happen?

Also, why wasn't the Mosquito used as a night fighter? It had the range and speed for that role and the Lancasters sure needed the protection.

[Cpl Carrot]

The Mossie was used as a night fighter. It replaced the Beaufighters.

Everyone seems to have forgotten the Ju 88 as well. Just as versitile as the Mossie.

[Jim Boggs]

According to Willie & Joe, one could use a mine detector to locate the metal banding surrounding buried casks of wine.

[Pvt. Ryan]

Condoms were used to keep rifle barrels clean during amphibious landings.

[flamingknives]

Originally posted by Cpl Carrot:

The Mossie was used as a night fighter. It replaced the Beaufighters.

Everyone seems to have forgotten the Ju 88 as well. Just as versitile as the Mossie.

True, but the Junkers 88 is ugly.

The Mossie is a beautiful aircraft.

IIRC, there was a Mossie ground attack version that mounted a semi-automatic 6pdr.

Plus there were night fighters, carrying 4 20mm cannon (the 4 .303 MGs were deleted to allow room for the radar.

Then there is the Beaufighter - started out as a night fighter and ended up in an anti-shipping/fighter-bomber role.

[Conscript Bagger]

Originally posted by CombinedArms:

I think there were just a few improvised night P-38, but never a production model.

According to this page 80 were produced, but they only saw action at the very end of the Pacific war.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

The Mossie is a beautiful aircraft.

IIRC, there was a Mossie ground attack version that mounted a semi-automatic 6pdr.

Although I'm a little vague on the subject, I think this was developed as an anti-shipping weapon and was mostly what it was used for. Only by the time it came into service, there wasn't a lot of Axis shipping left for it to shoot at.

Also, on the subject of night fighters, there was a successful conversion of the Grumman F6F Hellcat into a radar equipped nightfighter that made it into the last year of the Pacific war. Can anybody name another radar equipped single seat night fighter that actually fired its guns in anger during the war?

Michael