HaroldGodwinson Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 This seems a topic particularly pertinent to CMAK, though it can also apply to CMBO - obviously the big omission from CMAK is the Indian divisions in 8th army, there were more Indians than ANZACs for example.In addition the lack of black faces means that French imperial units such as morroccans, algerians etc are left out,also British West Indians, Gurkhas, and black US GI reserve units. I realise that all nations share the same face BMPs but maybe national specific faces would be an interesting idea. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FFE Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 I agree with your overall conclusion. There ought to be a few more shades, though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 Yes I was a bit disappointed in the lack of Indian's for the commonwealth forces. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaroldGodwinson Posted December 11, 2003 Author Share Posted December 11, 2003 It does seem the make up of the Allies in Italy was distinctly multicultural, British forces in addition to their colonial elements included a Brazilian Infantry division a Palestinean Jewish brigade a Greek mountain brigade and several Italian units which switched sides. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therontmoore Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 Just do like everybody else! Find pictures of what you want and go thru the bmp file and replace the ones you want! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaroldGodwinson Posted December 11, 2003 Author Share Posted December 11, 2003 But the face BMPs are shared by all the units in the game inc German, I can't really see Black or brown SS panzergrenadiers! (although I have seen pics of the Wehrmacht Sikh freikorps recruited from anti-Brtish Indians it was maybe only 200 strong!) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave H Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 This will be something I will be looking for in the completely overhauled CM in a year or two. Nation-specific faces will greatly increase the feel of a multi-ethnic army. It's unfortunate that the current engine can only support faces which can pass for Germans. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Tondu Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 Originally posted by Dave H: This will be something I will be looking for in the completely overhauled CM in a year or two. Nation-specific faces will greatly increase the feel of a multi-ethnic army. It's unfortunate that the current engine can only support faces which can pass for Germans. Hear, hear. Let's just hope that this doesn't fall on deaf ears. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 Originally posted by HaroldGodwinson: It does seem the make up of the Allies in Italy was distinctly multicultural, British forces in addition to their colonial elements included a Brazilian Infantry division a Palestinean Jewish brigade a Greek mountain brigade and several Italian units which switched sides. Actually, the Brazilian division was equipped and fielded by the US and had virtually no British equipment or connections that I'm aware of. 40 Years later the Brazilians were still tinkering with fielded variations on the M3 Stewart tank they'd recieved during the war. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 Before any of this will matter a whit, they need to make faces that don't look like they're whittled from an apple. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 I've seen an article chronicaling the exploits of a Brazilian Greyhound AC troop in Italy. Sported the same national markings (star constellation inside a white circle) as can be seen on that well known mint-condition Brazilian Stuart we've been seeing in picture books lately. --- As pleasant and inclusive as ethnic faces may be I can see a slippery slope forming. Would BFC be obliged reflect the ugly side of racial politics of the day? --limit black faces in WWII U.S. units to truck drivers, or limit officer faces to whites in Korea, or 40%+ black faces in Vietnam infantry units? And what if Italian players found the ethnic Mediterranean portraits to inadvertantly be offensive? (I'm surprised ethnic northen European whites aren't insulted by some of those portraits in the game! ). This sounds like one of those ideas that appear better in concept than in execution. [ December 11, 2003, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaroldGodwinson Posted December 11, 2003 Author Share Posted December 11, 2003 Actually, the Brazilian division was equipped and fielded by the US and had virtually no British equipment or connections that I'm aware of. 40 Years later the Brazilians were still tinkering with fielded variations on the M3 Stewart tank they'd recieved during the war. I think the thing is that Brazilian 1st division was under command of US 5th Army which was a mixed command composed of both XIII British Corps and IV, II US Corps, the Brazilian unit was designated as a Corps command and although supposedly independent its units were switched between 13th Br Corps and 4th US Corps for operations. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaroldGodwinson Posted December 11, 2003 Author Share Posted December 11, 2003 Would BFC be obliged reflect the ugly side of racial politics of the day? --limit black faces in WWII U.S. units to truck drivers, or limit officer faces to whites in Korea, or 40%+ black faces in Vietnam infantry units? And what if Italian players found the ethnic Mediterranean portraits to inadvertantly be offensive? I can see the pitfalls but on the whole I am sure non caucasian game players would be more pleased by some inclusion rather than otherwise. Perhaps my reference to the US armies relegation of black soldiers to rear area positions was a bad idea and would backfire in its intention, but where non-white nations fought a significant part in the theatre (particularly the Indians) I think the allocation of a specific bitmap is fair enough acknowledgement. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urban Shocker Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 We all know that the present faces portray the combatants as blockheads, literally. I think that facial anatomy and expressions don't bother us enough to stop playing the game or reduce our enjoyment. As for a slippery slope...I don't buy it. Here's why: a) The whole war was about ugly politics so why not authentically portray as much of it as can be reasonably done and is relevant to the game itself. The key words are reasonable and relevant. I made this point in a previous thread I started ("The Color Brown") and it is that BFC tries its best to meticuously model the equipment and their effects and to model human behavior itself yet something like skin color which reflects geographic origin to a large extent gets ignored. How many people would like it if all the tanks for the allies and the axis were the same color no matter what color they might have been in reality. c) Which brings me to my last point: there seem to be some, a few, a lot? of people who would have liked to see Indian and African divisions and even some American units be other than white. You can't bulldoze a slippery slope with an all-white bulldozer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 "We all know that the present faces portray the combatants as blockheads" Awh, don't be unkind. Compare them to the CMBO 'potato-head' soldiers, at least these guys have noses! You can't have any objection to the guy wearing the eyeglasses, can you? I think the only way to improve the soldiers would be to 'cartoonize' 'em. Smaller heads, broader shoulders. They wouldn't look more 'human' but they'd more closely approximate our expectations of what a computer game soldier is supposed to look like. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErrantRecce1 Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Also a thought to ease the facial colour hufferah. Anyone spending any more than a few weeks in theatre( MED) was darkened up nicely, so it would not be at all inadvertent, to colour all the faces dark. I was reading a book in the 8Th at El Alamein, and there was a quote from a tommy, who had been being treated by a nurse, the gist of it was, that she could not imagine that any true british lad could be so dark ( he had been in theatre in for over a year). So why not make everyone a nicely tanned beige, then everyone could project the colour they wanted onto those miserable doomed sprites. just a thought. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Gallear Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 I'm still holding out for Women Soviet soldiers in CMBB. But nobody listens to me ... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 "I'm still holding out for Women Soviet soldiers" ...Me, I'm considering modding the Brit N Africa short pants into English schoolsgirl uniforms. That would make for some interesting hand-to-hand fighting! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junk2drive Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 Amazing what you find when you search for something else. This one was pleasant. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 The Germans also had several thousand Arabs in uniform. One Unit the 845th Battalion fought in Russia, Greece, Yugoslavia and remnants fought to the death in Berlin. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 Originally posted by MikeyD: "I'm still holding out for Women Soviet soldiers" But for all the wrong reasons... And I think this is a good idea, that being 'a greater variety of nationality appropriate facial types', but I have to say that I try and avoid paying much attention to the faces of troopers on the Level 1 view, because it brings back uncomfortable shadow memories of my 'lost time' incidents, and a vague discomfort when I view things like the Washington Monument, or find myself looking at the Ford Probe auto (who came up with that name, I might add. Apparently we are seriously running out of names for cars...) [ October 09, 2004, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: Seanachai ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 Originally posted by Hans: The Germans also had several thousand Arabs in uniform. One Unit the 845th Battalion fought in Russia, Greece, Yugoslavia and remnants fought to the death in Berlin. That's why I love this Board. When I was a wee lad in 'Juniour High', we weren't taught about this sort of thing. Of course, World War II was still being called 'The War Where America Saved the World and Converted Evil Nations Into Loyal Allies Against Godless Communism, While the Rest of the World Cheered Us On and Later Forgot to Say Thank You'. I believe it was shortened to World War II to save on textbook printing costs... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 Originally posted by Hans: The Germans also had several thousand Arabs in uniform. One Unit the 845th Battalion fought in Russia, Greece, Yugoslavia and remnants fought to the death in Berlin. There was also a Free India Legion, including turbanned Sikhs, though they didn't see much combat IIRC. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 It is nice to see that "we" have the time now to devote attention to non-gaming engine improvements rather than items that effect the fighting! I have no problems with the concept of different BMP's for faces at all but I really would rather the next game came along quickly .... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 Originally posted by dieseltaylor: I have no problems with the concept of different BMP's for faces at all but I really would rather the next game came along quickly .... Silence, insect! There's no room on this Forum for those who choose Substance over Form! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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