Turret hits and the poor ole PZ-IV

[Kiwi Joe]

I've played CMBO, CMBB and now CMAK for quite some time now. I've watched literally 1000's of shells strike tanks. And it seems to me that the vast majority of hits strike the turret of tanks. A moderate amount strike of the upper hull, and very few the lower hull. This goes for ALL amour no matter the relative size of these 3 sections.

When I look at a tank the hull usually makes up the biggest part of it. So why all the turret hits in CM? Poor ole tanks like the PZ-IV (in real life very common) are hardly seen because of its 50mm front turret armour. It just dies sooooo easy. This can't be true to life or the germs would have surely beefed it up or not continued to produce 1000's of them right throughout the war!

Whats up???? please help my little mind grapple with this problem :confused:

[Bone_Vulture]

Don't spam every section with the same question.

[Kiwi Joe]

2 forums is hardly EVERY section mate.

[Slappy]

It is far more than is needed to get a proper answer around here though.

/* edited for spelling and general clarity */

[Kiwi Joe]

Apoligies: havent been round in ages and things seem to have splintered into several sections. Will not happen agian.

[Abteilung]

The Pz.IV turret has always been a subject of some curiosity for me. I have simply never gotten around to finding and purchasing the references which may explain the vehicle's developement history a bit better. The Pz.IV had a traverse rate of somewhere in the neighborhood of 11-13 seconds throughout it's lifetime, so I daresay that weight probably wasn't too big a factor. That is given that the changes to the turret from the Ausf.D to the Ausf.G only added a second or two to the rate which azimuth adjustment was possible. Just my thinking, though.

[ January 29, 2004, 01:42 AM: Message edited by: Abteilung ]

[V]

Originally posted by Abteilung:

The Pz.IV turret has always been a subject of some curiosity for me. I have simply never gotten around to finding and purchasing the references which may explain the vehicle's developement history a bit better. The Pz.IV had a traverse rate of somewhere in the neighborhood of 11-13 seconds throughout it's lifetime, so I daresay that weight probably wasn't too big a factor. That is given that the changes to the turret from the Ausf.D to the Ausf.G only added a second or two to the rate which azimuth adjustment was possible. Just my thinking, though.

So this thread isn't aout the PZ-IV/70? I guess that one doesn't really have a turret, does it?

[Schugger]

Could be that you have witnessed more turret hits than anything else, because most players prefer to maneuver their tanks into a hull down position when engaging the enemy.

[Mr. Tittles]

The game models hit distribution for all tanks as being the same. So the Panzer IV 50mm turret face is 'bigger' than it is in actuality?

A simple cure would be to make the mantlet 50mm and the turret face 80mm. While this is a fudge, it just creates a turret based re arrangement that models the Panzer IV turret protection better.

Anyone know the percetage distribution for a hull down and non-hull down tank in CM?

[JoMac]

Originally posted by Kiwi Joe:

I've played CMBO, CMBB and now CMAK for quite some time now. I've watched literally 1000's of shells strike tanks. And it seems to me that the vast majority of hits strike the turret of tanks. A moderate amount strike of the upper hull, and very few the lower hull. This goes for ALL amour no matter the relative size of these 3 sections.

When I look at a tank the hull usually makes up the biggest part of it. So why all the turret hits in CM? Poor ole tanks like the PZ-IV (in real life very common) are hardly seen because of its 50mm front turret armour. It just dies sooooo easy. This can't be true to life or the germs would have surely beefed it up or not continued to produce 1000's of them right throughout the war!

Whats up???? please help my little mind grapple with this problem :confused:

[ January 29, 2004, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: JoMc67 ]

[Panzer76]

I replied before, but it dissapered toghter with a post from Redwolf.

The sizes of the turrent doesnt matter in CM.

75 % of the hits when hulldown will hit the turret no matter if the turret is 1/4 or 3/4 of the target.

This togheter with the big toon size for PzIV (5)makes the PzIV a seldom sight in QBs.

[JoMac]

Originally posted by JoMc67:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kiwi Joe:

I've played CMBO, CMBB and now CMAK for quite some time now. I've watched literally 1000's of shells strike tanks. And it seems to me that the vast majority of hits strike the turret of tanks. A moderate amount strike of the upper hull, and very few the lower hull. This goes for ALL amour no matter the relative size of these 3 sections.

When I look at a tank the hull usually makes up the biggest part of it. So why all the turret hits in CM? Poor ole tanks like the PZ-IV (in real life very common) are hardly seen because of its 50mm front turret armour. It just dies sooooo easy. This can't be true to life or the germs would have surely beefed it up or not continued to produce 1000's of them right throughout the war!

Whats up???? please help my little mind grapple with this problem :confused:

</font>

[Treeburst155]

Panzer 76,

How did you find out that 75% of hits on hull down tanks will hit the turret? Did you test? It's a time consuming test to run, noting where each hit happens. It's not that I don't believe you, I'm just curious as to how you found out that very interesting bit of info.

What percentage of hits will be turret hits if a tank is NOT hull down? If only the turret front is penetrable by a particular gun, a Pz IV might be better off avoiding hull down positions, thereby spreading the hits to include the hull.

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by Treeburst155:

Panzer 76,

How did you find out that 75% of hits on hull down tanks will hit the turret? Did you test?

I did a test some time ago on a related issue, approx 25 % of the hits was upper hull hits.

This was by no means a scientific test, so the results are guide lines.

[Treeburst155]

Thanks, Panzer 76. I think 25% is probably fairly close, based on my experiences over the years.

[Redwolf]

Darn, my posting was eaten up.

Anybody has a browser window open with it and cut'n'paste it?

In very short, I suggested creting another simple one-bit flag "small turret", analog to "burns easily" and "Smoke mortar".

A tank with that flag set would divert a number of hits from the turret to the lower hull. That would account nicely for Pz IV and T-34.

Let say the current probablity to hit the turret when the tank is hull-up is 35% of all front hits. Then a tank with that flag would only have 25% hits on the turret, the 10% would hit the upper hull instead. If the tank is hulldown, then a tank with this flag would be overall harder to hit.

%%

I forgot to mention that both the Panzer IV and the early T-34 are special in more ways which would make the mechanism I propose an even bigger realism win.

Not only do these two tanks have a small turret front in relation to the overall front silhuette.

Both of them have part of that already small front heavily angled, it is not realistic to compute all hits as is they hit the plain front armor. And both have a substancial part of the turret front covered by the gun mantlet which IIRC is 30mm extra thick on the Panzer IV, making that area effectivly 80mm spaced armor.

If you would just shift a number of hit to the hull, that would be very elegantly be accounted for.

[Michael Emrys]

Hmmm, it seems as if a post of mine has vanished from this thread as well. Maybe it will pop up somewhere else.

Michael

[Mr. Tittles]

The game models hit distribution for all tanks as being the same. So the Panzer IV 50mm turret face is 'bigger' than it is in actuality?

A simple cure would be to make the mantlet 50mm and the turret face 80mm. While this is a fudge, it just creates a turret based re arrangement that models the Panzer IV turret protection better.

Anyone know the percetage distribution for a hull down and non-hull down tank in CM?

[Kitty]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

Hmmm, it seems as if a post of mine has vanished from this thread as well. Maybe it will pop up somewhere else.

Michael

Thank god and I hope not. =)

Kitty

[Kiwi Joe]

Surely different tanks needs a different % hit chance on thier various areas depending on the relative size of those areas. I mean the amount of turret hits on a KV-2 vs a T-34 has got to be drastically different.

I would have thought each tank would have its 3 areas (turret, upper and lower hull) and 3 sides (front, side, back) modeled as a % of overall size and that would be used to randomly calculate where a shot hit. Thus the T-34 front might be:

turret: 25%

Upper hill : 45%

Lower hulll: 30%

And the KV-2:

turret: 50%

Upper Hull: 30%

Lower Hull: 20%

This makes a huge impact on the game as most tanks have quite different armour values for thier differing areas.

Case in point... the Sherman. At best it gets 89mm for its turret front. But its hull is 51mm @ 56 degrees, which has a much better chance against the common german 75mm L48 at reasonable range.

Has anybody been able to track down any real world info on hit %'s for tank areas?

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by Kiwi Joe:

I would have thought each tank would have its 3 areas (turret, upper and lower hull) and 3 sides (front, side, back) modeled as a % of overall size and that would be used to randomly calculate where a shot hit.

It's not, and it wont happen with this CM series.

So, the % of the different parts on different AFVs means nothing. Wait for CMX2

[Abteilung]

Does crew experience affect shot selection and placement? E.G. would a higher experience level crew be more likely to target a thinner area once ID has been made (even partial ID).

One other thing...what makes the AI target sound contacts sometimes and not others? I have seen a few instances of both tanks and AT guns targeting an Inquisitor Mk.III, hitting it, and knocking it out. What are they aiming for in that instance?

I understand LOS rules, but a lot of times they have LOS and do not fire until ID is made, sometimes they open up right away.

[ January 30, 2004, 05:48 AM: Message edited by: Abteilung ]

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by Abteilung:

Does crew experience affect shot selection and placement? E.G. would a higher experience level crew be more likely to target a thinner area once ID has been made (even partial ID).

No.

Originally posted by Abteilung:

One other thing...what makes the AI target sound contacts sometimes and not others? I have seen a few instances of both tanks and AT guns targeting an Inquisitor Mk.III, hitting it, and knocking it out. What are they aiming for in that instance?

Units cant target sound contacts. There ofcos has to be los to target. The moment there is los to the target, it's no longer a sound contact as that implies no los. The moment there is los, the unit should be partial IDed.

[flamingknives]

Actually, you can have LOS to a grey box tank. Usually in poor light/visibility or when the target is partially obscured by terrain.

[Beta1]

True but if its a sound contact grey box tank you still cant target it directly. When you do get real LOS and partial ID the tank often turns out to be in a different position. I find grey box tanks tend to be closer than where it really is. I guess if you can hear a tank coming towards you your going to think its a tiger 25m away in the fog rather than a SPW 75m.