ONE Shot and it died!

[Bone_Vulture]

I played the scenario as Germans vs AI. Ok, the computer has very little sense of tactics, but I noticed that attempting to open fire against the Yankee tanks with soft AT equipment is usually a suicide before the Tiger arrives.

Timing your other AT assets to open up in sync with the Tiger will lead to disastrous casualties on the Allied side. Of course, a skilled human player is likely to be in the village by then, and has hammered the German infantry as well.

[aka_tom_w]

This an interesting comment from a veteran gamer. (re: Ligur's comments below)

Thanks

When I wrote the original post I was sort of wondering if anyone else found that Tiger 1 easy to deal with and kill while playing the Allies for the first time and NOT knowing what to expect or what you would be facing in the "end game" of the scenario.

so far (at least in this thread) no one else has mentioned that the Tiger was too easy to kill or too easy to take out without armour. In fact it would seem in all the comments about this scenario it would appear I have been the only player to KO the Tiger with ONE frontal turret penetration from a Sherm. (NOT the M10's mind you just one regular 75 mm AP round to the front turret area of the Tiger and BOOM it was dead) So it would then be appropriate to conclude this was a VERY lucky shot and a complete FLUKE as no one else is reportlng that the Tiger died from one round fired from a Sherm.

I think if it had of been a lower hull weak spot penetration or even a upper hull weak spot penetration I would have be less bewildered but the front turret aspect of the Tiger 1 was VERY heavily armoured and I would speculate it was designed to withstand hits from reg 75 mm ALLIED AP from anything but point blank range (the range in my case was 419 m)

But in this case it looks like it was a REAL FLUKE shot and no one else is reporting anything like it so perhaps I should play that demo scenario again (I have only played it once so far) and see what happens when the Tiger shows up in the second or third trial run of the demo.

Thanks to all who have posted here, I have really enjoyed reading about other player's experiences as the Allies with that demo scenario.

It is A GOOD demo scenario to be sure!

Merry Christmas

-tom w

Originally posted by Ligur:

When I played the scenario I was tha allies, with two brave TD's cover arcing armor from the hill while everything else was methodically mopping up the village.

Then a Tiger appeared, destroyed both of my TD's in 30 seconds and then went on to hammer all my tanks out and shoot everything to bits no matter how hard I tried to hide.

In the end, it was a draw.

The Tiger was über

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Tero:

IMO the problem is not in the actual modelling of the phenomenon, the problem is the rate of occurance in the game. Luck is a factor but when that luck (or misfortune) occurs consistently then there is something wrong.

Wel, you could argue this way:

So, 1% (or 2-3%) of hits are assumed to be on a weak spot and armor is reduced by 50%. Assume you like that percentage, whatever it is.

But in CM you have more hits than in reality to start from, due to absolute spotting. So the absolute number of weak spot hit is too high as well, and thi sis particulary annoying for situations where the target would historically be a tough nut to crack.

You could (I don't say you should) argue that a reduction of the weak spot assumtions on hits would add to the realism by partly making good for the too high number of target shots.

But it is very difficult to try to counter one unrealism by distorng another unrealism, the ffects would have to be observed closely.

(The same argumentation applied to gun damage)

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Panther Commander:

I think that these types of stories make the books simply, BECAUSE, they are so out of the ordinary.

Agreed.

And once again, these type stories do give support to BFC's weak armor hits that make an impossible shot. IMHO.

I have no problem with that idea, and the incident may have occurred in exactly the manner described (as I have said before, lots of improbable things happen in real life and WW II was a big event with plenty of room for lots of improbable things), but I would take it with a grain of salt. Although a 37mm would have a better chance of performing as described than the Jabo-fired .50s we have heard about in these pages, the same counter-arguments still apply. Before I bought the story, I'd want to see a detailed discussion of the physical evidence. Until then, I reach no conclusion. For me, the story is filed neither as true or false but as "unproven".

Michael

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Panther Commander:

I think that these types of stories make the books simply, BECAUSE, they are so out of the ordinary.

Agreed.

And once again, these type stories do give support to BFC's weak armor hits that make an impossible shot. IMHO.

I have no problem with that idea, and the incident may have occurred in exactly the manner described (as I have said before, lots of improbable things happen in real life and WW II was a big event with plenty of room for lots of improbable things), but I would take it with a grain of salt. Although a 37mm would have a better chance of performing as described than the Jabo-fired .50s we have heard about in these pages, the same counter-arguments still apply. Before I bought the story, I'd want to see a detailed discussion of the physical evidence. Until then, I reach no conclusion. For me, the story is filed neither as true or false but as "unproven".

Michael </font>

[Ligur]

I remember reading both of the stories on the forums AND in linked articles, back when everyone was still playing CMBO.

I tend to think at least the M8 thing might be true, WW2 was a huge show and I'm sure we haven't even heard half of the amazing, improbable and well nigh impossible occurences that took place because the witnesses were either killed before they had a chance to tell or just didn't want to talk about it.

Sometimes when I'm reading WW2 related material I get this unreal feeling, you know what I'm talking about, the one when you start thinking "Oh man, how did this ever come about? What were they thinking? This is just unreal, how is that possible" but you know there is a very good chance it all happened.

[Redwolf]

Actually this might not be a surprising story at all.

The lower hull plate of a Panther gets its robustness by angle, not thickness.

If the Panther was going over an obstacle and/or the Greyhound was sufficiently lower there would be no problem for the 37mm AP round (88mm max penetration in CMAK) to go through that plate (63mm in CMAK and usually lousy quality steel).

I don't see how that is relevant here.

[haido]

Ive read most of the posts and it seems that people don't see the tigers as a big threat. During my career with CMBB and CMAK ive only managed to take out ONE tiger. They have always seemed invulnerable

And shermans normally dont stand a chance. I've had like 3-4 shermans pounding one tiger and he has taken them all out.

So it must have been a "fluke" just pure luck, or i must be doing something wrong.

But i have flanked the tigers with tanks and never seemed to be able to kill them.

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by redwolf:

Actually this might not be a surprising story at all.

The lower hull plate of a Panther gets its robustness by angle, not thickness.

If the Panther was going over an obstacle and/or the Greyhound was sufficiently lower there would be no problem for the 37mm AP round (88mm max penetration in CMAK) to go through that plate (63mm in CMAK and usually lousy quality steel).

I don't see how that is relevant here.

It was used as an example of improbable hit results.

Panther Commander

[gunnergoz]

True, they were in part Fireflies, but recall that a few measley Shermans put old Michael Wittmann to rest, along with the rest of his Tiger I crew.

Truth is often stranger than fiction. And, for all our obsession with the statistics, formulas, tables and charts used to depict our little digital battles, in reality it often turns out that plain old luck plays a big role in the life - or death - of a soldier.

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by haido:

Ive read most of the posts and it seems that people don't see the tigers as a big threat. During my career with CMBB and CMAK ive only managed to take out ONE tiger. They have always seemed invulnerable

Lucky you. My Tigers always end up getting shot by ridicilously precise AT rounds, or bog in mud. :mad:

[aka_tom_w]

OK so I played the LoD Demo scenario again, as the Allies for only the second time. This time I had a chance to duel it out with the Tiger with my two M10's

From about 620 m (the crest of the BIG hill in the middle) the two M10's opened up on the Tiger. Poor kitty didn't have a chance.

The Tiger being MORE experienced opened fire and got the FIRST shot off first! It missed one shot fired Again and got one M10, one hit, one kill, 88mm death ray strikes again! (no problem with that as it should be!)

One M10 down!

But the other one is busy pumping out the rounds in the first minute of the battle the Tiger took about three hits and one hit late in the minute was a front turret partial penetration.

(Tiger says ouch!)

So it looked like the Tiger was shocked. (I think) In the next minute it did NOT return fire and the M10 pumped a few more rounds into it and got a front upper hull penetration, at 620 m the 76mm AP of the M10 can and did penetrate the Tiger Frontally. Tiger KO'ed!!

(NO problem with that!)

Now that was a good duel.

(no flukey weak spot penetrations!)

I have found that in my experience I have had FAR more difficulty taking down Panthers than Tigers.

My First post was ALL about the fact that at 419m the Sherm's regular 75 MM AP round went straight through the Frontal Turret Aspect of the Tiger killing it in ONE shot!

Ka -Boom!

It was MUCh more fun to duke it out with the two M10's at 620m's .

I am going to try again and see if the Tiger acts a little bit More indestructable? he he

-tom w

[ December 26, 2003, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Redwolf]

Tom, you understand chances and probabilities, do you?

But give that Tiger hell as often as you want

[aka_tom_w]

well sure

When I faced off against that Tiger the second time the odds were pretty good I think......

It looked like two to one to me

Two M10's (76 mm) to One Tiger (88mm)

the odds and probabilities at 620m looked like the M10's had a decent chance of frontal aspect penetration. (a better than %50/50 chance I am guessing, of a partial or full penetration of the upper or lower hull of the Tiger at that range if the round scored a hit no?)

BUT in the first case, the 75 mm Sherm AP round had a REALY really low chance (it should be closer to Zero than %1 or %2 or %3 ) of penetrating the Tiger at 419m in as in my first encounter with the lucky shot and the weak spot penetration to the front Turret of the Tiger .

right?

-tom w

Originally posted by redwolf:

Tom, you understand chances and probabilities, do you?

But give that Tiger hell as often as you want

[ December 26, 2003, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[OGSF]

I played LoD as the Americans first. Got a fairly straight forward win, lost one Stuart, one Greyhound and eventually one Sherman to the Tiger, before the entire German Army surrendered.

Second go round I played as the Germans. Kicking butt but still two Shermans left alive when the Tiger showed up. Two issues I had with what ensued...

First, Tiger missed a alot. The Shermans were on the ridge in front of town, and the Tiger managed to kill one Sherman with about ten shots. Then the M10s' appeared and killed the Tiger with the first shot. Oh well, game over man.

More buggery, and akin to the "consequences of an armour penetration" thread, I had a Panzershreck guy with 1HC round left hiding in a building in front of town. The remaining Sherman was starting down the hill at an angle, and the Shreck guy had 24% hit chance, and I think a "fair" chance at a kill. About 200 yards.

Whoosh! Clang! "Lower side hull penetration"!! Whoo-hoo!! But the Sherman did not miss a beat. Continued on without pause, shooting up some squad in a fox hole somewhere.

So an 8.8cm (4") hollow charge projectile penetrates a Sherman through the side and it doesn't even notice.

Bollocks! BFC fix or do somefink!!

[aka_tom_w]

Yup CMAK sure "feels" different than CMBO and CMBB thats for sure. :eek:

Tanks seem to take WAY more hits and "nuisance" penetrations that have very little or no effect now... (except of course for the weakspot penetration from the Sherm 75 mm in the first post )

Maybe that is more realistic?

I really don't know? :confused:

-tom w

[ December 29, 2003, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[MikeyD]

The Tiger I has lost its übertank status in CMAK, that's for sure. BFC put in all the right numbers according to all the latest research but the result doesn't 'feel' right. aka_Tom's initial post is commenting that a Sherman's 75mm round from 419m (1,374 feet for us Americans) should have much less luck against a Tiger turret front than it does. Sure 'penetration at weak point' could mean the Tiger mantlet may have been hit a dozen times over its life and this last round was the straw that broke the camel's back.

I rather wondered if the difference between homogeneous and face-hardened plate, and the difference between capped and uncapped projectiles has been a bit overmodeled. I think in this instance we're looking at the anomalous result of the combo of Tiger Homogeneous armor and Sherman capped projectiles.

[aka_tom_w]

interesting observation MikeyD

that "sort of" makes sense.

-tom w

Originally posted by MikeyD:

The Tiger I has lost its übertank status in CMAK, that's for sure. BFC put in all the right numbers according to all the latest research but the result doesn't 'feel' right. aka_Tom's initial post is commenting that a Sherman's 75mm round from 419m (1,374 feet for us Americans) should have much less luck against a Tiger turret front than it does. Sure 'penetration at weak point' could mean the Tiger mantlet may have been hit a dozen times over its life and this last round was the straw that broke the camel's back.

I rather wondered if the difference between homogeneous and face-hardened plate, and the difference between capped and uncapped projectiles has been a bit overmodeled. I think in this instance we're looking at the anomalous result of the combo of Tiger Homogeneous armor and Sherman capped projectiles.

[John1966]

Tiger KO'ed!!

ONE SHOT

Front turret penetration at weak spot!

Imagine how it feels to be on the other end of that situation.

I didn't want to share this with the world (mainly because I was worried the world wouldn't believe me) but after reading this thread I realsie it could be useful therapy.

Too flooky to really need a spoiler but SPOILER

it was "Brits at Anzio"

END SPOILER

My Tiger drives over the bank to give those pesky Shermans a good seeing to at about 1000m.

BANG! KO'd first shot.

Not possible, but there it was.

I tried to tell my wife but she just said "yes dear". But I can tell you...

I quit the scenario in disgust.

SPOILER Having since replayed this scenario, it was possibly an unseen anti-tank gun but I'm sure it was one of those damn Shermans END SPOILER

[Ligur]

So I'm the only one the Tiger scared to death and gave a goddamn solid asskicking I won't forget? 30 secs and both M10s knocked out?

Sheesh, my luck with armor has been as bad since CMBO (I was the one who always got killed with the first shot. Infact in my first armored TCP/IP ever a Puma KO'd my Churchill with the first shot from 400 meters and so on and on and on and on ****ing forever on).

[stikkypixie]

Talk about bad luck, i had my only Tiger (crack) and only tank KO'ed by a platoon HQ (it's CMBB though so it's a bit foreign) now that's frustrating...

[Redwolf]

This discussion is getting off-base.

First of all, in CMBO the Tiger 1 was a pretty good joke, too. I couldn't run over anything or anybody with that thing - and believe me I tried.

Second, half of the people here speaking of Shermans are not mentioning whether they were 75mm, 76mm or even 17pdr Shermans. Not too much of an account to take into account.

In CMBB the Tiger 1 was pretty strong because the 76mm T-34 gun was modeled to penetrate neither a 80mm StuG Front nor the 80mm Tiger side - which as I understand Rexford's latest postings might have been an error.

I would still be curious on a Rexford quote on the 75mm Sherman gun performance against the Tiger side and the ammunition changes after Normandy.

[aka_tom_w]

no, don't worry

I just HAD to play the Demo LoD until I could see the Tiger Take out ALL my Allied armour!

I played it five times and ONCE the Tiger Killed ALL the armour in about 2 minutes including the 2 M10's in one minute. The 88mm is leathal there is no doubt about that.

For Redwolf in all my postings I have been refering to the 75mm Sherms specific to the LoD Demo scenario.

-tom w

Originally posted by Ligur:

So I'm the only one the Tiger scared to death and gave a goddamn solid asskicking I won't forget? 30 secs and both M10s knocked out?

Sheesh, my luck with armor has been as bad since CMBO (I was the one who always got killed with the first shot. Infact in my first armored TCP/IP ever a Puma KO'd my Churchill with the first shot from 400 meters and so on and on and on and on ****ing forever on).

[manu1]

I just played a game against the AI as Americans VS Germans. Pulled off what I thought was a perfect ambush on a Tiger with a Sherman from behind a building only to see my shots bounce from 19m on the side hull and 15m on the rear hull.

You should have seen that Sherman reverse then when the Tigers turret started turning !!.

(Can't say I blamed them.)