ONE Shot and it died!

[aka_tom_w]

SPOILER

BIG HAIRY Spoliler Warning

now that you have all been warned

I guess most eveyone has played the CMAK DEMO scenario Line of Defence.

right?

everybody knows it?

I FINALLY played it for the first time today.

I savioured it

I enjoyed it

I played the Allies and approached cautiously and well mostly just decided to level ALL the buildings I could as the those pesky sharp sooters wounded my TC's

OK no big deal

I did well and lost only one Stuart to the silly little AT guns hiding here and there.

one 20 mm Flak gun immobolized a Sherm and caused it to bail out.

OK

so the rout is on

the Krouts are fleeing like mice from a sinking ship.

the STuH thing shows up and one Flank shot from a Sherm nails it before it is a problem.

DEAD

OK?

I can move on.

I looks like the mopping up is all that is left as the scenario winds down and I prepare to take the last flag on the other side of the bridge.

so far I have only lost ONE Stuart and One bailed Sherm and this looks for all the world like a cake walk!

BUT no

(playing with EFOW of course)

One sherm takes a one side penetration and is knocked out immediately Billowing smoke and flames KO'ed DEAD!

It, and the Stuart near-by fire Smoke at the attacker!

Both die in vain

OK so now one Tiger shows up (no one here that is reading this is surprised!! Spoiler warning posted )

There are more than a few minutes left in the scenario (I am playing the AI)

and I am now delightled I have a live one here!, and a good little tactical battle on my hands now.

BOTH the M10's are primed for action and I have 3 sherms left and one Greyhound..

OK

bait and hook

I have done this before and I figure OK!

the Tiger is unsupported and this should not be all that hard. (I was NOT wrong)

So I start to set up the battle plan and the tactics.

The tanks are jockying for position and I use one Sherm to distract the Tiger.

yup Got his attention!

in the 40-43 (?) minute of the the Tiger shoots first and Misses!

both Tanks see each other aim! (no other Allied tanks are yet in a position for a juciy Flank shot, the tank trap has not been set up yet so its JUST the Tiger vs the Sherm and I KNOW who will get the better of that duel)

The Sherm is in a nice Key hole position in the village waiting to nail the unsuspecting Tiger

VERY narrow field of fire Range 419 m!!

thats it, only 419m

both are Frontal aspect to Frontal Aspect

Face to Face!

The Sherm returns Fire

ONE Shot

Its a Hit!

Front Turret

Then the dissapointment sets in!!

:mad: :mad:

Yes I was pissed

Tiger KO'ed!!

ONE SHOT

Front turret penetration at weak spot!

Tiger is flaming

Its ALL over

no tactics

no bait and hook

no juicy tank duel with the M10's

No set up for the rear or flank shot

NO!!

Sherm Kills Tiger at 419m with a ONE Shot kill (FIrst shot! ONLY Shot!) and a front turret penetration at Weak Spot! :eek:

I guess I got "lucky" (sure, Whatever!)

but it did not seem right to me!

Yes I looked up the odds and Stats and Yes it looked like the armour of the front turret of the Tiger maybe "could have" possibly been penetrated at that range by a lucky shot.

Yup I got the lucky shot and that was it!

Battle over

Tiger dies after only killing two tanks.

I was dissapointed but it was a good scenario and I hope the CMAK full game comes in the mail SOON!

And that my story and I am sticking to it.

-tom w

[ December 22, 2003, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[dugfromthearth]

I had something similar in my own scenario.

I had a german Tiger approaching my infantry line and was hoping to have to assault it with infantry. A Jumbo Sherman at long range caught site of the Tiger through narrow woods. I had something like a 15% chance of a hit and "rare" kill, and first shot kills the Tiger.

That was my first encounter with a Tiger. I wasn't impressed.

[Michael Emrys]

Tom,

It could have been worse. Much worse. Suppose the Tiger had killed all your armor with first shot "lucky" kills while all your shots bounced off his armor, then preceded to rampage through all your infantry. He might have turned your decisive victory into decisive defeat.

Michael

[Airborne]

I took out the Stug easily. The Tiger really surprised me and cooked off most of my armor. The 2 Sherms I had left smoked the bridge and I charged across with my engineers. (I was fairly certain that I had neutralized all German infantry threats. The Tiger destroyed one HQ and routed one squad, but I was able to get an HQ and an engineer squad past it into the woods. The next turn my engineers took it out with satchel charges. Great stuff.

I would say you were very lucky, indeed.

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

Suppose the Tiger had killed all your armor with first shot "lucky" kills while all your shots bounced off his armor, then preceded to rampage through all your infantry.

A single, unsupported tiger can't 'rampage through infantry' in a town, especially in the short space of time left in that scenario.

[Michael Emrys]

When it arrives, there are about a dozen turns left. If they are on the side of the town facing the Tiger, which given the flow of battle is likely at that point, he gets to shoot at a lot of them without having to get close enough to be vulnerable to reply. If they've already taken much in the way of casualties, which by my experience of the scenario is also likely, it wouldn't take many hits from an 88 to finish off a few squads and have the rest running.

I'm not saying that this is a probable outcome of an average playing of the scenario—for one thing it would require the Allied player to be pretty careless in his handling of his armor—but since you seem to have accepted that as a given and base your argument on something else...

Michael

[BulletRat]

From the ever-so-popular FAQ:

My tanks shouldn't die like that! I saw in this film, right, where Tigers were invincible, and my Tiger was taken out! BTS please fix!! or do somfink!!

(I just love that sentence)

[aka_tom_w]

well I did not mean it exactly that way

But at 419m when a Sherm puts a regular 75mm AP round (NOT tungsten, NOT 76mm apc) clean throught the front turret (at weak spot) of a Tiger and KO's it with one lucky shot I think that is maybe beyond the realm of the realistically possible. Where is the "weak spot" on the front turret mantle of the Tiger?

WHAT??

we squeazed off a 75mm round and it went straight down the larger 88mm barrel (I guess that is possible) to meet the next round in the breach and Ka BOOM! (I guess that actually happened ONCE in all of WWII yes? no?)

OR maybe the round squeazed its way clean through the optical lens sighting aperture (hole) to hit to the rounds stored in the turret to KO it???

I dunno? :confused:

I just figure the front turret mantle of the Tiger I was one of the most heavily armoured and well protected amoured aspects of ANY tank in ALL of WWII and getting a penentration at weak spot seemed just a little "unreal" to me .

But thats just me......

-tom w

Originally posted by BulletRat:

From the ever-so-popular FAQ:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> My tanks shouldn't die like that! I saw in this film, right, where Tigers were invincible, and my Tiger was taken out! BTS please fix!! or do somfink!!

(I just love that sentence) </font>

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

When it arrives, there are about a dozen turns left. If they are on the side of the town facing the Tiger, which given the flow of battle is likely at that point, he gets to shoot at a lot of them without having to get close enough to be vulnerable to reply. If they've already taken much in the way of casualties, which by my experience of the scenario is also likely, it wouldn't take many hits from an 88 to finish off a few squads and have the rest running.

My experience from many games is that a single Tiger won't do much against a company or more of infantry that is in any kind of decent cover:

1: He can only shoot his 88 at one squad at a time, and the ROF and target acquisition isn't that great. So even with 12 turns, squads he routed at the beginning of his 'rampage' will already have recovered by the end.

2: The infantry can simply move out of his LOS. If the tiger enters the close terrain to find them he'll get a bazooka round up the tailpipe.

Now since the terrain of that map is definitely 'close' with lots of cover and restricted LOS, I'd say the tiger's chance against the infantry is about nil.

I used to play a lot of TCP meeting engagments and I liked to buy all infantry, and watch my opponents' uberarmor spit and fume with nothing to shoot at. One opponent even accused me of being 'gamey' because I didn't buy any tanks for his King Tiger to kill

[ December 22, 2003, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: CMplayer ]

[Thin Red Line]

But Line of Defence map is so small that you can area target every bush with the guarantee it contains a dozen of GIs...

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by CMplayer:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

Suppose the Tiger had killed all your armor with first shot "lucky" kills while all your shots bounced off his armor, then preceded to rampage through all your infantry.

A single, unsupported tiger can't 'rampage through infantry' in a town, especially in the short space of time left in that scenario. </font>

[JessRobinson]

The fight against the Tiger has been an ordeal in the PBEM I’m currently playing. Certainly my talented PBEM partner has had a lot to do with it (you there Dumrox?).

By my count le Tigre has taken out seven AFVs – three Shermans, two M10s, one Greyhound, and one Stuart. I’ve tried pairing the M10s at long range (the shots either missed or broke up on the Tiger’s front turret; both got quickly smoked by the Tiger), doing a bait and hook with a Stuart (a single clear flank shot at close range didn’t penetrate; the return shot did penetrate before the Stuart could scoot away), and various zook actions have led to disaster. Clang whiff clang whiff clang splat.

I finally killed the beast on my last turn as the Tiger was rushing to the aid of the beleaguered green StuH. The Tiger took out a Sherman from the rear at close range prior to finally (!) taking two penetrating hits in the side/rear turret from a Shermie at medium range.

The StuH is still alive, after having absorbed a front hull penetration from a Sherman and two zook rounds in its side (one from about 100m no less). Methinks the StuH will go down within the next two turns. Then I can swarm my engineers through town and hopefully take all three flags in the time remaining, although I know Dumrox still has something up his sleeve.

I agree with the original poster on this thread – if I had taken the Tiger out in one shot, this match would have not have been nearly as much fun. It also speaks volumes for playing against a strong opponent who knows how to handle his armor. I doubt that the AI would have handled the Tiger with such skill.

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by Panther Commander:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by CMplayer:

A single, unsupported tiger can't 'rampage through infantry' in a town, especially in the short space of time left in that scenario.

Yes one can. </font>

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by CMplayer:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Panther Commander:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by CMplayer:

A single, unsupported tiger can't 'rampage through infantry' in a town, especially in the short space of time left in that scenario.

Yes one can. </font>

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

But at 419m when a Sherm puts a regular 75mm AP round (NOT tungsten, NOT 76mm apc) clean throught the front turret (at weak spot) of a Tiger and KO's it with one lucky shot I think that is maybe beyond the realm of the realistically possible. Where is the "weak spot" on the front turret mantle of the Tiger?

In Combat Mission, on any armor hit there is a small constant chance that it is assumed to be at a weak spot. If a weak spot is hit the armor is assumed to have about 50% is what it usually has.

Steve said it is 1%, I am pretty sure it is 2-3%. Both chances and the 50% reduction seem fair to me.

If a tank has a "shot trap" in the CM unit definition this chance is raised to 10% which again seems like a fine model to me. It is unclear to me whether the shot trap only applies to front hits.

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by Panther Commander:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by CMplayer:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Panther Commander:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by CMplayer:

A single, unsupported tiger can't 'rampage through infantry' in a town, especially in the short space of time left in that scenario.

Yes one can. </font>

[Redwolf]

As said, the weak spot model looks fine to me.

But what I am still not sure about is the high penetration of pre-October 1944 U.S. 75mm AP ammunition in CMAK.

At the time of Normandy the Tiger's back and sides are said to resist 75mm AP at point black range.

Here is the CMAK data, maximum penetration:

75mm AP 6/1942 (Grant): 86mm

75mm APCBC 7/1942 (Grant): 97mm

75mm L/38 APCBC (large HE charge) 10/1942 (Sherman): 104mm

75mm L/35 APCBC 4/1943 (British 75mm SP, Autocar): 102mm

The question is whether this data is against face-hardened or homogenous armor. I think other people figured it would be against FH, so performance against homogenous armor may be different.

If I am not mistaken, previous forum wisdom was that the Sherman APCBC round was introduced in October 1944 and was the first to penetrate Tiger sides.

[Kilroy Lurking]

Played the yanks first - lost a both stuarts to the AT guns.

Easily stormed the church position and got to the bridge, with two shermans in close support.

Then the Tiger shows up, takes out all my armour bar one sherman.

The fly-boy saves the day, KO's the Tiger, I take the bridge Flag. Victory is sweet.

Switching sides, I loose both guns, but by placing the wire in front of the church, all attacks are repulsed. The MG in the church takes out a greyhound. The allied tanks mill about on the grass slope (I am sure a human player would have been more aggressive)

I send the the Tiger down the road so he is flanked by trees (maybe aircraft around) The Allied armour count starts to approach zero. One P-51 makes a perfect down the road bombing run - the tiger is straddled but undamaged, the CO was buutoned. Next turn the Rockets straddle him -no damage. Half way through the next turn, Dumkopf CO unbuttons just in time to to see the business the end of an airborn 50 calibre(?) hailstorm. However this is some serious tiger crew - not a beat is missed they take out the last two shermans in the same turn.

For a finale the Tiger repulses the last effort allied charge across the barbed wire from close range - then relocating in the nick of time to the other town flag beats off all the remaining infantry attacks.

Ah sweet victory.

Ps. Who says air support sucks?

[aka_tom_w]

Replying to Redwolf:

I understand the game mechanics and don't dispute your post.

"But what I am still not sure about is the high penetration of pre-October 1944 U.S. 75mm AP ammunition in CMAK.

At the time of Normandy the Tiger's back and sides are said to resist 75mm AP at point black range."

That is what I had in mind when I posted my concern.

I do not know of any documented REAL world WWII example or incident or battle or engagment where a Sherm firing a 75 mm AP round EVER penetrated the frontal aspect of the Tiger I turret? NOT one, not ever.

I could be wrong but I don't think there is a "weak spot" not even %1 or % 2 0r %3 of the frontal aspect of the Tiger 1 turret NOT anywhere. The ONLY thing that makes sense is if the round penetrated through the gun sight or the 75 mm round miraculuously went STRAIGHT down the 88mm gun barrel (In that case the odds should be as low as one in 1000 or 1 in 10,000).

BUT thats just me.

I suppose the good thing is that "ANYTHING can happen" so it is not so predictable. I like that concept and I FULLY support the %1 weak spot chance to hit and I guess a %50 reduction in armour thickness at the weak spot is not unrealistic (BUT I really have no way to know that).

So in my case in the scenario I posted regarding the KO'd Tiger in the demo scenario I guess I should just shut up and say "Hey ! I got lucky! and nailed the Tiger and KO'd it with one shot from a Sherm Way to Go! Medals all around!"

(But I would rather dissect the engagement and pick the wings off it and analyze every little thing about it to death because I am just THAT way !! )

oh well

-tom w

Originally posted by redwolf:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

But at 419m when a Sherm puts a regular 75mm AP round (NOT tungsten, NOT 76mm apc) clean throught the front turret (at weak spot) of a Tiger and KO's it with one lucky shot I think that is maybe beyond the realm of the realistically possible. Where is the "weak spot" on the front turret mantle of the Tiger?

In Combat Mission, on any armor hit there is a small constant chance that it is assumed to be at a weak spot. If a weak spot is hit the armor is assumed to have about 50% is what it usually has.

Steve said it is 1%, I am pretty sure it is 2-3%. Both chances and the 50% reduction seem fair to me.

If a tank has a "shot trap" in the CM unit definition this chance is raised to 10% which again seems like a fine model to me. It is unclear to me whether the shot trap only applies to front hits. </font>

[Andreas]

Rexford maybe able to tell you if the MG port hole should be considered a weak spot.

That Real Life does not provide for examples should not mean it was impossible, there were only ~1,400 of them built after all, and I suppose any day many more than that die on a CM battlefield.

Here is some good news about a Tiger, with a nice frontal shot to boot, showing the MG port hole.

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

Replying to Redwolf:

I suppose the good thing is that "ANYTHING can happen" so it is not so predictable. I like that concept and I FULLY support the %1 weak spot chance to hit and I guess a %50 reduction in armour thickness at the weak spot is not unrealistic (BUT I really have no way to know that).

-tom w

[/QB]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Panther Commander:

I have a book on the Battle of the Bulge that states an M8 Greyhound fired a 37mm round that hit the frozen road bounced off the road and hit a Panther in the bottom armour and penetrated. Thereby knocking out the Panther. Anything is possible and truth is stranger than fiction. Or M8 Greyhounds.

Ah. Well. If it was in a book, it must be true.

Michael

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Panther Commander:

I have a book on the Battle of the Bulge that states an M8 Greyhound fired a 37mm round that hit the frozen road bounced off the road and hit a Panther in the bottom armour and penetrated. Thereby knocking out the Panther. Anything is possible and truth is stranger than fiction. Or M8 Greyhounds.

Ah. Well. If it was in a book, it must be true.

Michael </font>

[Tero]

IMO the problem is not in the actual modelling of the phenomenon, the problem is the rate of occurance in the game. Luck is a factor but when that luck (or misfortune) occurs consistently then there is something wrong.

My pet beef is the consistency with which the hand held AT weapons miss with their first shots. Nobody is THAT unlucky THAT consistently.

[Ligur]

When I played the scenario I was tha allies, with two brave TD's cover arcing armor from the hill while everything else was methodically mopping up the village.

Then a Tiger appeared, destroyed both of my TD's in 30 seconds and then went on to hammer all my tanks out and shoot everything to bits no matter how hard I tried to hide.

In the end, it was a draw.

The Tiger was über