kingjames Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 While playing a hot seat quick battle with my son last night,(teaching him the ropes) I helped him move his 75mm arty spotter, 97m from target set up los, and waited for the arty to fall on my men. Instead it landed 131m to his right and 45m behind him. He could of very well wiped out his flank if I hadn't beat him to it. Is this a bug or just the new arty? I do not own cmbb. The rounds continued to fall, they were not just targeting rounds. When I tried to re-adjust it for him, it almost landed on him. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 That is supposed to be a 'feature' afaik. It is one of the worst design decisions ever made by the CM team and should never have been introduced. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 As people pointed out to me in the other thread: there is no evidence that in-LOS fire should ever come off target. The manuals words are unclear and Steve's statements indicate that he thinks in-LOS fire should always be on target. Do you have savegames of the game run? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedy Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 The same thing happened to me last night playing an East African scenario. I plotted some arty about 200m to my front and it ended up dropping a couple of hundred metres of to my right. I replotted it to the same spot and it started dropping right on the spotter! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agua Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Somebody has GOT to save one of these files when it happens, so it can be sent to bfc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Kruger Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 I have saved games (PBEM) that I think demonstrate this.. from the CMAK demo. I established a targeting line with 105 mm spotter, which was later obscured by smoke before the artillery fell, and it fell way off target.. I'll doublecheck this weekend if I have time... J Kruger 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Originally posted by Agua: Somebody has GOT to save one of these files when it happens, so it can be sent to bfc. Well, the problem is that a hotseat or TCP savegame does not show the same movie every time. A PBEM move would be most helpful I presure - except that nobody of BFC tells chimes in so I speculate 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Originally posted by Herr Kruger: I have saved games (PBEM) that I think demonstrate this.. from the CMAK demo. I established a targeting line with 105 mm spotter, which was later obscured by smoke before the artillery fell, and it fell way off target.. I'll doublecheck this weekend if I have time... J Kruger Documented behaviour. The view was obscured before the fire for effect went underway. What we suspect might be broken is off-target fire for effect when LOS was give at the time the spotting rounds fell. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil stanbridge Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Only last night the AI *attempted* to hit me with his arty only to have the rounds land a good 200m off his own flank. So what we are saying is if the LOS is obscured by smoke *before* the countdown has finished the rounds may land off target? I havent really used arty to a massive extent but I certainly remember one lot being on target (of sorts) but several more lots being very off target. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Well, that is *my* assumption. Since BFC documents none of this and I wasn't eagier to test things in CMBB I cannot know for sure. I am not aware of somebody really dissecting artillery behaviour in CMBB, at least not telling anybody else about it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted December 13, 2003 Share Posted December 13, 2003 For whatever reason, CMAK arty is less well-behaved than CMBB arty. I suspect a bug, but I can't reproduce the behaviour. I have some more ideas I'm going to try out this weekend. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Kruger Posted December 13, 2003 Share Posted December 13, 2003 Originally posted by redwolf: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Herr Kruger: I have saved games (PBEM) that I think demonstrate this.. from the CMAK demo. I established a targeting line with 105 mm spotter, which was later obscured by smoke before the artillery fell, and it fell way off target.. I'll doublecheck this weekend if I have time... J Kruger Documented behaviour. The view was obscured before the fire for effect went underway. What we suspect might be broken is off-target fire for effect when LOS was give at the time the spotting rounds fell. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted December 13, 2003 Share Posted December 13, 2003 FACT: A CMAK arty strike plotted to a point within LOS will go haywire if LOS is obscured by SMOKE during the waiting period, AND that smoke persists while the strike is happening. I've yet to find out if the strike will be on-target if the smoke blockage ceases before the rounds begin falling. I'll be testing that and more soon. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tank Ace Posted December 13, 2003 Share Posted December 13, 2003 yea that arty stuff sucks a fat one. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted December 13, 2003 Share Posted December 13, 2003 FACT: If a spotter's LOS to his target point is blocked by smoke (after plotting), but the smoke clears before ANY rounds fall, the strike will sometimes, if not all the time, STILL BE OFF TARGET, but it is adjustable. So, if your spotter's LOS gets blocked by SMOKE during the delay, even briefly, you will have to re-select the target point once LOS clears (an adjustment), or cancel the strike. Moving on now to dust. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinek Posted December 13, 2003 Share Posted December 13, 2003 humm i don't have cmak yet (just ordered it) but i have been playing cmbb for a year.... could it be due to the fact that there is now a lot more "smoke" in cmak due to the dust arty or tanks make. it might be minimal los loss to the player but for the ai it might be different. I.E: spotting round lands creating a little bit of dust that makes the FO lose LoS to it and then it lands off target 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted December 13, 2003 Share Posted December 13, 2003 FACT: Dust has no effect on arty strike accuracy as long as the target point was within spotter LOS at the time of plotting. Smoke is the real enemy of arty spotters. Dust is only a nuisance when present in the Orders Phase because it might obstruct LOS to places you would normally be able to see. I now believe smoke is the cause of my arty problems with CMAK. Even a small amount of smoke, that BRIEFLY blocks spotter LOS during the arty delay, will send the rounds off target. If it is a windy scenario, the smoke could come and go quickly, hardly noticed by the player if lots of other things are happening. Still, if that smoke blocked your spotter's LOS, you have a botched strike. It's possible I may have jumped to conclusions based on limited testing. I should repeat the multi-turn tests several times to be absolutely sure of my "FACTS". I will do this when actual games seem to contradict what I have stated here. I doubt I'll need to test further. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 13, 2003 Share Posted December 13, 2003 Again, I have a thought that is not precisely about the problem being discussed here, but I think is closely enough related to bring up in this thread. I think it would be closer to reality if—when a spotting round for whatever reason drops out of sight of the FO—instead of dropping a FFE salvo immediately, the game would automatically drop another spotting round. Furthermore, it might be nice if there were a correction process even when the SRs do fall in sight. That is, they get progressively closer to the intended target until they are within some defined distance, say 100 meters or something like that. Then and only then would the FFE be fired. For the serious arty grogs in the audience, does this sound approximately realistic, or is it too ideal? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Osborne Posted December 13, 2003 Share Posted December 13, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: Again, I have a thought that is not precisely about the problem being discussed here, but I think is closely enough related to bring up in this thread. I think it would be closer to reality if—when a spotting round for whatever reason drops out of sight of the FO—instead of dropping a FFE salvo immediately, the game would automatically drop another spotting round. Furthermore, it might be nice if there were a correction process even when the SRs do fall in sight. That is, they get progressively closer to the intended target until they are within some defined distance, say 100 meters or something like that. Then and only then would the FFE be fired. For the serious arty grogs in the audience, does this sound approximately realistic, or is it too ideal? Michael Michael, Thats they way it should be. You keep adjusting the SR within 100 meters then called FFE. When I use the arty in CMAK, I see one round drop in then within 5 seconds there is a salvo of rounds that is about 200 meters to the left of the target every dam time. Its getting to the point that I wont use arty anymore. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanok Posted December 13, 2003 Share Posted December 13, 2003 Originally posted by Treeburst155: FACT: Dust has no effect on arty strike accuracy as long as the target point was within spotter LOS at the time of plotting. Smoke is the real enemy of arty spotters. Dust is only a nuisance when present in the Orders Phase because it might obstruct LOS to places you would normally be able to see. I now believe smoke is the cause of my arty problems with CMAK. Even a small amount of smoke, that BRIEFLY blocks spotter LOS during the arty delay, will send the rounds off target. If it is a windy scenario, the smoke could come and go quickly, hardly noticed by the player if lots of other things are happening. Still, if that smoke blocked your spotter's LOS, you have a botched strike. It's possible I may have jumped to conclusions based on limited testing. I should repeat the multi-turn tests several times to be absolutely sure of my "FACTS". I will do this when actual games seem to contradict what I have stated here. I doubt I'll need to test further. This may be the case, but it also brings up something else. I was never in the military, but even I know enough not to send arty 200 meters to my left when I want it to go 200 meters dead ahead, just because smoke and dust obscured my LOS for twenty seconds. I don't think I'd be *that* much off when calling in the strike. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted December 13, 2003 Share Posted December 13, 2003 Sanok, I'm not sure brief blocking of spotter LOS to the target point by smoke is supposed to send the strikes off-target. It seems wrong to me. It could be a bug, rather than intended behaviour. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugfromthearth Posted December 13, 2003 Share Posted December 13, 2003 "When I use the arty in CMAK, I see one round drop in then within 5 seconds there is a salvo of rounds that is about 200 meters to the left of the target every dam time. Its getting to the point that I wont use arty anymore." just target 200 meters to the right of your enemy and problem solved. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingjames Posted December 13, 2003 Author Share Posted December 13, 2003 We were in amongst the woods, no desert and there was no smoke. It is possible that the tired bug struck the spotter, he had come a long distance. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted December 13, 2003 Share Posted December 13, 2003 Originally posted by Treeburst155: I'm not sure brief blocking of spotter LOS to the target point by smoke is supposed to send the strikes off-target. It seems wrong to me. It could be a bug, rather than intended behaviour. The only question should be if he can see the spotting rounds. If he can, then the barrage should land where the spotting rounds came down. If he cannot see the spotting round, then the barrage should not start. What kind of realism is that? - Battery: "Could you see the spotting rounds" - Spotter: "Up, no, they went off somewhere, no clue" - Battery: "Well OK then, FFE" It also sounds like even a LOS interrupt that ended before the spotting rounds fell causes arty to be off-target. No good. pls fix or do somefink if so. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted December 13, 2003 Share Posted December 13, 2003 Originally posted by kingjames: We were in amongst the woods, no desert and there was no smoke. It is possible that the tired bug struck the spotter, he had come a long distance. What's that "tired bug" supposed to mean? Please people, if threads like these are filled up with nebulous hints at mysterious bugs it's no wonder BFC doesn't react on them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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