Panic units flee towards the enemy?

[Jaws]

I've seen it more than 10 times now. So that makes it no coincidence anymore My opinion is that this is not realistic and frustrate players. I never noticed this before in CMBO or CMBB.

Am I seeing ghost or are more players out there who have noticed this :confused:

And what is your opinion about this??

[ March 12, 2004, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: Jaws ]

[Schrullenhaft]

There are limitations with the engine.

What you're seeing may be the result of the scenario setting for 'friendly sides'. Routed/panicked units will often retreat towards the closest side designated as 'friendly' (or possibly neutral). This could result in the units retreating towards the enemy.

Another limitation may be that what the engine/AI deems as nearest sufficient 'cover' that ends up bring the unit closer to the enemy than it already is (or even running directly towards the enemy).

Hopefully situations like this will be addressed in CMx2, with a lot more info stored for each unit (resulting in 'memory' for units beyond the current turn) and a myriad of other details. Right now I chalk it up to an engine limitation that may be far too complex to code around with the current CM series. As logical as the problem seems, it can be quite a bit harder to code up into the AI.

[ March 12, 2004, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: Schrullenhaft ]

[Cinnamon J. Scudworth]

Are they fleeing towards cover in the direction of the enemy? That behavior has been around since CMBO. Panicked units will often move forward under intense fire if there is cover nearby (woods, building, etc.).

[Jaws]

Originally posted by Schrullenhaft:

There are limitations with the engine.

What you're seeing may be the result of the scenario setting for 'friendly sides'. Routed/panicked units will often retreat towards the closest side designated as 'friendly' (or possibly neutral). This could result in the units retreating towards the enemy.

Another limitation may be that what the engine/AI deems as nearest sufficient 'cover' that ends up bring the unit closer to the enemy than it already is (or even running directly towards the enemy).

Hopefully situations like this will be addressed in CMx2, with a lot more info stored for each unit (resulting in 'memory' for units beyond the current turn) and a myriad of other details. Right now I chalk it up to an engine limitation that may be far too complex to code around with the current CM series. As logical as the problem seems, it can be quite a bit harder to code up into the AI.

Thanks for the answer but I've got a lot of examples that they flee over open terrain towards the enemy with no sight for cover at all. Stronger, they flee out of there protected area. If there has been no change in the data since CMBO/CMBB to this subject then it surprises me that I didn't noticed this before.

So it seems I'm still the only one who noticed this :confused:

[Hensworth]

Originally posted by Jaws:

Stronger, they flee out of there protected area.[/QB]

The protected area being actual cover or a defilade position ? The engine can't recognize the latter as safe. If shots land nearby, open ground is open ground, whether directly in the line of fire or not.

[Captain_Thunder]

Originally posted by Mirage2k:

Are they fleeing towards cover in the direction of the enemy? That behavior has been around since CMBO. Panicked units will often move forward under intense fire if there is cover nearby (woods, building, etc.).

Unfortunately, that doesn't always seem to be the case. I've had paniced green crews drive their tanks up on to a ridge from protected hull down positions behind the ridge and into enemy fire, where, of course, they get slaughtered instead of just reversing back behind the slope for protection. There were no obstructions or fires blocking their path to rear either. They just suddenly go "stupid" and more or less advertise themselves as willing targets.

"HERE I AM KILL ME!"

This should really be looked into by Battlefront.

[Alsatian]

I hate the opposite problem. Advance 50m over open ground with only 5m until you reach cover, then you recieve fire for the first time and they panic and flee back over 50m of open ground. Forgoing cover 5m in front of you for cover 50m behind you seems counterintuitive to me.

[Jaws]

Originally posted by Captain_Thunder:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mirage2k:

Are they fleeing towards cover in the direction of the enemy? That behavior has been around since CMBO. Panicked units will often move forward under intense fire if there is cover nearby (woods, building, etc.).

Unfortunately, that doesn't always seem to be the case. I've had paniced green crews drive their tanks up on to a ridge from protected hull down positions behind the ridge and into enemy fire, where, of course, they get slaughtered instead of just reversing back behind the slope for protection. There were no obstructions or fires blocking their path to rear either. They just suddenly go "stupid" and more or less advertise themselves as willing targets.

"HERE I AM KILL ME!"

This should really be looked into by Battlefront. </font>

[Stoffel]

Jaws is correct.

I had 3 fireflies in a battle against him,one after the other they drove forward after receiving fire instead of reversing to safety behind a hill,all had a scoot and retreat command.

Now I have to act against that behaviour so I have to micromanage every inch a tank has to travel,I end up giving a tank 10 or more different commands.

It slows down his movement though but it ussually keep them in one piece.

Same goes with infantry,if they get a sneak command (in my opionion too fast and too many times)they tend to move slowly exposing longer,say its like the other poster said,10 meters than its better to run IMHO than to sneak.

If you compare that to the findings of redwolf about second burst firings than you end up with a lot of unnessicary casualties.

[rune]

It also depends ont he scenario designer guys. In the design, you pick friendly edges, and broken units will head towards the friendly edge. So a cutoff unit could head towards the friendly edge even if enemies are there. I did that on a scenario or two because that is what they had to do. However, go into the scenario and change the edge on the scenario and see if you get the same thing. It isn't a bug, but could be the way the scenario was designed.

Rune

[Jaws]

Originally posted by rune:

It also depends ont he scenario designer guys. In the design, you pick friendly edges, and broken units will head towards the friendly edge. So a cutoff unit could head towards the friendly edge even if enemies are there. I did that on a scenario or two because that is what they had to do. However, go into the scenario and change the edge on the scenario and see if you get the same thing. It isn't a bug, but could be the way the scenario was designed.

Rune

It happends also in Quick Battles :confused:

[Redwolf]

This behaviour usually doesn't have anything to do with friendly map edges for units which have TacAI override due to high pressure but are not yet broken.

In almost all cases it is the quest for better cover. But as people said, that quest doesn't take LOS and blocking cover like walls and sandbags into account and hence ends up in a mess.

As I said, that is before units are broken, this is for the (silly IMHO) commands given by the TacAI under too much pressure. Once units actually break everything is all right because then they run to the map edge.

In my opinion the game would work better if the first of the behaviour would be executed much less often.

I am also annoyed by tanks running towards the enemy against player commands. That happens a lot, too.

[Jaws]

Originally posted by redwolf:

This behaviour usually doesn't have anything to do with friendly map edges for units which have TacAI override due to high pressure but are not yet broken.

In almost all cases it is the quest for better cover. But as people said, that quest doesn't take LOS and blocking cover like walls and sandbags into account and hence ends up in a mess.

As I said, that is before units are broken, this is for the (silly IMHO) commands given by the TacAI under too much pressure. Once units actually break everything is all right because then they run to the map edge.

In my opinion the game would work better if the first of the behaviour would be executed much less often.

I am also annoyed by tanks running towards the enemy against player commands. That happens a lot, too.

Agree, this means that something had changed in the AI behaviour. Since the AI was ok in CMBO and CMBB I would suggest to turn that option back to where it came form

Properly my thinking is too simple

[Richie]

I have to agree here. Units that have been ordered to 'withdraw' or 'run' end up panicked and then moving toward enemy units even when well away from them initially. I've also seen dodgy decisions from veteren 'Firefly's' I've had to correct next move phase, often too late then...

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Jaws:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by redwolf:

This behaviour usually doesn't have anything to do with friendly map edges for units which have TacAI override due to high pressure but are not yet broken.

In almost all cases it is the quest for better cover. But as people said, that quest doesn't take LOS and blocking cover like walls and sandbags into account and hence ends up in a mess.

As I said, that is before units are broken, this is for the (silly IMHO) commands given by the TacAI under too much pressure. Once units actually break everything is all right because then they run to the map edge.

In my opinion the game would work better if the first of the behaviour would be executed much less often.

I am also annoyed by tanks running towards the enemy against player commands. That happens a lot, too.

Agree, this means that something had changed in the AI behaviour. Since the AI was ok in CMBO and CMBB I would suggest to turn that option back to where it came form

Properly my thinking is too simple </font>

[Alkiviadis]

I uncle spoke of an incident that is reflected by this behavior, he was a Marine on Guadalcanal.

His squad was on a recon patrol, got ambushed by the Japanese. They were pinned & it looked like they were finished, his buddy got up, charged the eneemy, the squad followed they broke the ambush & got out of it. His buddy wasn't hurt & got The Silver Star...his buddy said said it wasn't bravery, but panic, he was so scared, when he got up to run away he ran in the wrong direction, the rest of the squad followed him.

[Redwolf]

Well, yes, but CM squads to not actually run into the enemy positions to kill them. If the above happens they just crawl into the zones covered by a lot of enemy fire.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Same situation here. I had a Veteran Bazooka team in an ambush position located in a large area of brush take fire from an approaching Stug so it proceeded to crawl directly TOWARDS the Stug closer to the edge of the brush although this was in the direction of the enemies map side. Naturally it then panicked when copping even more fire although there was no better cover in the direction of the Stug. Seemed strange to say the least and resulted in its death when eventually fleeing in the correct direction but all too late.

Regards

Jim R.

Edited to fix repitition

[s3333cr333tz]

I just had an equally frustrating, yet slightly different spin on the issue.

Im throwing 2 platoons from my mobile reserve into the flank of a determined German attack on my right. One squad moves less than 1 yard out of cover and begins taking fire. They get pinned and begin to sneak. Im thinking to myself, no prob they will just sneak back into the tree line things are peachy. Boy was I ever wrong. These were some fanatical mofo's they were sneaking head on towards a company+ of Jagers across about 75 yards.

Now im thinking to myself, nobody is THAT stupid, is this the classic ostritch behavior? MY FACE IS IN TEH DIRTZ, THEY CANT SEE ME CAUSE I CANT SEE THEM.

Oh well, luckily it happened later in the movie and I was able to correct their behavior before they got eradicated ;p

[MikeyD]

"I never noticed this before in CMBO or CMBB."

I recall there was a BIG stink about this a looooong time ago, so long ago can't recall if it was mid-CMBO or the initial CMBB. The troop action was tweaked in the following patch in an effort to correct it, and maybe even tweaked some more in the patch after. I don't think that they could go too far in altering the troop behavior because, like putting a fat girl into a tight dress, when you adjust one corner nicely something unwanted is liable to come popping out someplace else.

[Redwolf]

Mikey, I think you are referring to the auto-sneak-exhaustion thread which was not about the direction the crawling was done but a different issue. It was fixed in the next patch.

[sgtabell]

Two other points to remember, one for sure, the other not.

For sure, elevation is ignored as cover by TACai, crunchies and tankies will not hide behind hills. Hills act in such a way as to decrease the statistical probability of being hit.

(I think I heard the following). Each piece of terrain is a 20 x 20 meter square. I think the ai looks to the closest cover to the edge of the square. So if a unit is on the far side of a square, and the closest cover is nearer to the edge on the other side of the square, than it is to the edge the unit is located, the unit will run across it's 19' of square, to whatever cover is nearby.

It's also good to remember that this simulates unit fracturing under fire. The unit does not disperse in the game but stays together as a unit. Most of the time under fire the unit would become ineffective under some of the conditions, and split up. I feel that the "confusion" factor helps make this a reality. IMHO

SgtAbell

[Jaws]

Originally posted by Alkiviadis:

I uncle spoke of an incident that is reflected by this behavior, he was a Marine on Guadalcanal.

His squad was on a recon patrol, got ambushed by the Japanese. They were pinned & it looked like they were finished, his buddy got up, charged the eneemy, the squad followed they broke the ambush & got out of it. His buddy wasn't hurt & got The Silver Star...his buddy said said it wasn't bravery, but panic, he was so scared, when he got up to run away he ran in the wrong direction, the rest of the squad followed him.

I would like to see this future, but in CMAK they do every thing when in panic except fighting

[Loki]

I have seen this too. The most resent time I had a squad that was pinned. Too both flanks were German squads, straight ahead was 2 Tigers. My squad was in brush but crawled 20 meters into open terrain towards the Tigers.

I didn't have time after the battle to edit the scenario to ensure it wasn't a design mistake, but the author was Wild Bill. I doubt it was a mistake from a design stand point.

[Redwolf]

People, you still make the cardinal mistake:

Do not mentally mix up CM behavious in these two entriely different cases:

1) Units under fire but not broken

2) Units broken

CM is absolutely fine for case 2), if they are really broken they ignore you commands and run to the friendly map edge, stopping in cover if they come by some. That is perfectly fine, IMHO.

In case 1) the CM engine automatically gives commands to units which are not yet out of control (not panic or broken), and those commands usually don't make any sense whatsoever, because the calculation of safe areas is broken (no other name for it). Walls and sandbags are not taken into account, the position of the enemy doesn't seem to be taken into account at all and soldiers regularly craw up hills where they get into LOF of known enemy positions - and all that before they are paniced and broken.

Behaviour 1) is just fine. In my opinion, all that behaviour 2) stuff either needs to be fixed to be more realistic or else just deactivated. Other wargames just have the units stop and hide in this situation. I don't say that just staying put is the realistic thing to do but it is certainly more realistic than letting a half-developed algorithm take over in the manner described here and hence the better compromise.

Same with tank driving towards known enemy AT shooter and turning their flanks.