YankeeDog Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 **** SPOILER ALERT - LINE OF DEFENSE**** I didn't really have time to actually play the demo last night, but I wanted to take a peek at some of the new graphics & c. I wanted to see the way the M10s looked, so I was just speeding through Last Defense - leaving my units in place and just clicking "go" to get to the turn where the reinforcements show up. As such, I had no enemy units spotted in any way. My air support showed up. On the first pass, the plane fired its rockets. Since I had no units forward, I have no idea what the target for the rockets was, other than that they landed near one of the big VLs in the village. On this initial pass, a german light AA gun did return fire, but I only knew this by a vague sound contact. It's what happened next that really surprised me: For the for the next five turns or so, the FB buzzed the battlefield once a turn - I could hear it flying overhead. However, it did not fire a shot! No German assets returned fire, either. I have never seen air support do this before in CMBO or CMBB. Usually, after the initial scouting pass, the plane drops its bombs/rockets on the next pass, and then always strafes SOMETHING on the following passes (assuming it is not shot down or driven off). This is all speculation based on observed game behavior (AFAIK this aspect of the model has never been specifically commented on by BFC), but in CMBO and CMBB this "always attack something" behavior of air support appears to lead to some wierd behaviors where planes would sometimes spot and attack extremely unlikely targets like infantry or anti-tank guns hiding in woods if there was nothing more exposed (like a unit in open ground) available. As such, hiding all your units from air support was a useless tactic; you needed to leave a 'sacrifical lamb', like a truck or two, out in the open to draw the air attack away from your hiding ATGs and infantry. Anyway, if this has changed in CMAK, and air support can now 'loiter' around the battlefield, looking for targets but potentially finding nothing, then IMHO this is a MAJOR improvement that I am very happy to see, especially since I was not expecting to see any improvments to the air support model until CMX2. Curious to know if anyone else has seen anything similar. Or if a beta tester or BFC is willing to confirm/deny this improvement. Cheers, YD 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zebulon Pleasure Beast Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 :mad: Grr, on the first pass the P-51H knocked out a Greyhound and a Stuart and mauled a platoon with rockets. After a few turns it showed again, this time attacking the village with cannons, and I could hear it flying around for several turns again, until it attacked with cannons again targeting something in the village. So yes, it seemed to be on the battlefield for much longer, perhaps waiting for suitable targets to show up after realizing THEY WE'RE MY /?#&!=/#/?¤ TROOPS he shot first. :mad: :mad: :mad: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombinedArms Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 My FB also made several passes, some of them w/o apparently firing. (I'd already knocked out the 20mm). The FB did eventually fire rockets at the Tiger. It seemed like it did no damage--but the Tiger never moved after that. Perhaps it was immoblized. The Tiger was near the rear of the map behind a dip in the road...I could see it with some of my inf in trees. When the German AI eventually surrendered, the Tiger was, of course, abandoned. Not sure whether my plane killed it or not, but the Tiger is worth enough points that it alone might have prevented surrender if it was alive. I'm not sure if EFOW in CMAK will let us see if a tank at a distance killed by air is dead or isn't dead. It may also be possible that an immobilized tank lowers global morale in CMAK. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benpark Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 The P-51 did a real # on me as well (playing as US). Those rockets hurt. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agua Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Originally posted by benpark: The P-51 did a real # on me as well (playing as US). Those rockets hurt. Heh... Mine did a great job routing a few enemy inf squads right before a one of my platoons was about to assault their dug in positions. Couldn't have been happier. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Hehe, the P-51 was great. His rocket salvo missed my StuH (phew!) and then proceeded to strafe the american infantry! My brave Germans sat in their foxholes, cheering the pilot. It wasn't THAT common to get 1st class CAS in 1945 for the Wehrmacht... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nippy Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Originally posted by ParaBellum: Hehe, the P-51 was great. His rocket salvo missed my StuH (phew!) and then proceeded to strafe the american infantry! My brave Germans sat in their foxholes, cheering the pilot. It wasn't THAT common to get 1st class CAS in 1945 for the Wehrmacht... I played as the Americans first: First pass the plane took out one of my rifle platoons with a nicly dropped rocket load, the next pass he straffed my HMG platoon, on the third pass I was cheering for the German AA gun. :mad: Then I played as the Germans. On the first pass he dropped his rocket load right on top of the Greyhound and two M5s. Killing 2 out of the 3 units. This time I ordered the AA gun to hide, why stop a good thing? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trommelfeuer Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 It's what happened next that really surprised me: For the for the next five turns or so, the FB buzzed the battlefield once a turn - I could hear it flying overhead. However, it did not fire a shot! No German assets returned fire, either. I have never seen air support do this before in CMBO or CMBB. Usually, after the initial scouting pass, the plane drops its bombs/rockets on the next pass, and then always strafes SOMETHING on the following passes (assuming it is not shot down or driven off).I've seen this in CMBO and CMBB...quite often in CMBB, rare in CMBO... Since I'm knee-deep in CMBB "Operation Störfang" and I don't have much time I only played CMAK demo "Line of defense" for a short time as the germans. I witnessed two "trigger-happy" P-51 pilots who unleashed their rockets at US armour...quite funny... CMAK looks brilliant, sounds superb and I will buy it for sure. But for now I'm too busy on the Ostfront. Greetings, Sven [ November 20, 2003, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: Trommelfeuer ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Here's another member of the AAA fan club. The 51 unloaded his rockets on my firing line but luckily his shooting was as bad as his target identification. He did return, however, and straif several German infantry squads, something I didn't notice too much in CMBB or CMBO. I happened to be at just the right angle when the rockets came in. They look pretty neat. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyrene Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 So you are all saying that the US Air Force is modelled correctly then? Gyrene 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 Yes, this inter-service rivalry thing is getting a little out of hand. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJK Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 Another member of the friendly-fire P-51's. Fortunately, no serious damage done. A number of passes were made first (I've seen this in CMBB as well) before they unleashed their rockets on 3 Sherman's hull-down on the crest overlooking the town (3 HMG crews there as well). These units were not forward, in fact they were rear action as everything else had advanced beyond them. Does this seem likely? I know it's possible and I realize the posts that will follow indicating the difficulties of spotting from the air, etc, all granted, but I persist. It seems that it is very likely that FF will occur in this scenario, is it due to the pilots being green (I assuming they are) or is this modeled into this scenario for the demo (doubt it)? I'm also guessing that this "green" issue is cropping up so for CMAK because we aren't used to see it so heavily used before. In CMBO and CMBB, troops were at the least "regular" and most likely "veteran" for the most part, for most scenarios. I can't think of one where an entire force mix is "green". A final guess is that I need to get used to the "bungling ninnies" on their first op's out, they're pretty dangerous to themselves! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 When a German plane flies over, the Allies jump in the ditch When a British plane flies over, the Germans jump in the ditch When an American plane flies over, everyone jumps in the ditch Wisdom of the Wehrmacht, IIRC "If it flies, it dies" US Army, Tunisia, following a number of friendly fire attacks 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJK Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 Originally posted by flamingknives: When a German plane flies over, the Allies jump in the ditch When a British plane flies over, the Germans jump in the ditch When an American plane flies over, everyone jumps in the ditch Wisdom of the Wehrmacht, IIRC "If it flies, it dies" US Army, Tunisia, following a number of friendly fire attacks LOL, works for me! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Pilot Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 My air support did a great job targeting. Unfortunately, while its rocket volley looked beautiful, it missed the Tiger. The fact that the Tiger started moving during the attack run may have thrown off the pilot's aim. But the other straffing runs were great - no friendly fire incidents whatsoever. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted November 21, 2003 Author Share Posted November 21, 2003 Well, fratricide issues with air attack wasn't the original issue I started this thread with, but it IS an interesting topic. . . One think to keep in mind is that experience makes a big difference with TacAir assets and their ability to differentiate between friendlies and enemies. At least, experience level was a big factor in CMBO and CMBB. AFAIK, since you can't open the scenario in the scenario editor, there's no way of finding out what the experience level of the P-51 pilot is in the demo, short of just asking the designer (care to comment, KwazyDog??) So we don't know the experience level of the P-51 pilot, but if he's Green, a high number of mistaken identities wouldn't surprise me at all. Oh, and Trommelfeuer, thanks for the info about 'loiter' passes being in CMBO and CMBB as well. It just goes to show you how varied game expereinces can be - in my 2 1/2 years of playing these games, I can't remember ever seeing one. Then again, I don't play with Air Assets much. Cheers, YD 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.