Up Yours Flyboy!! or how the Air A.I. ruined my war

[Kwazydog]

No, there is no bug here guys, actually its my fault.

The problem is that I made the allied pilot 'green', as I didnt want him to be too deadly on the battlefield against the Germans. As a side effect it seems that he is targetting allied troops by mistake more than I expected, particually if he shows up a little early If anything its just a small problem with this scenario though (and something I had only seen twice in over 30 games). It isnt a bug, and actually is potentially something a pilot out on his first flight or two may have done unfortunately.

Btw guys, I have a perfect example of a real world meeting engagement here on a WW2 German training video I bought. In the trianing simulation, the Germans have had their front lines broken through by the attacking Russian troops. A German unit being held in reserve is ordered forward to meet the Russians and to blunt and then stop their advance. Its verying interesting actually and shows Jpz IV's and flame half tracks in action and is worth picking up if you see it about .

Dan

[ November 28, 2003, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[Pvt. Ryan]

The few times I have played this scenario as the Germans the P-51 arrives in the first five turns or so and attacks the StuH or the IG. I finally played it as the Americans and the P-51 didn't show up until about turn 40 and it bracketed the Tiger with rockets, but didn't damage it. A couple of turns later it came back to strafe and shocked the Tiger with its side armor facing towards me. The two M10s on the hill got off a couple of shots each and KO'd the Tiger. The German's surrendered a couple of turns later.

[Blah Blah Blah]

I was surprised when the P51 took out my tank's tracks with machine gun fire! Surely not?

Definately machine guns, as 1. he had rocketed me with no issues to my tank, straffed the tank at least one before.

I have only seen him attack his own guys once, when they were bunched as was mention by someone else.

[Kwazydog]

Blah, the P51 has eight .50cal mg's if I recall correctly, and it would only take one hit from thats in the right (or wrong ) place to snap a track.

Also note that they can be immobilised by a round through the tanks thin engine covers, too. Not something you see happen too often, but very possible.

Dan

[ November 29, 2003, 02:37 AM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

Blah, the P51 has eight .50cal mg's if I recall correctly, and it would only take one hit from thats in the right (or wrong ) place to snap a track.

Also note that they can be immobilised by a round through the tanks thin engine covers, too. Not something you see happen too often, but very possible.

Dan

Sorry Dan, 8 x .50s for the P-47, 6 for the P-51, but still no problem breaking tracks, external stowage etc. :cool:

[Kwazydog]

Hehe, oops...that shows that I dont know a hell of a lot about aircraft

Dan

[Blah Blah Blah]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

Blah, the P51 has eight .50cal mg's if I recall correctly, and it would only take one hit from thats in the right (or wrong ) place to snap a track.

Also note that they can be immobilised by a round through the tanks thin engine covers, too. Not something you see happen too often, but very possible.

Dan

Oh well, I guess we will put it down to beginers luck, and I was playing on +2 for the enemy.

Still managed to win by the skin of my teeth

BTW, how come you did not give the Germans a few extra bullets as they are defending!!

[Monty]

I mostly agree with my pbem opponent to NOT use aircrafts

Its a too big of a gamble imho.

But in scenario's you dont have a choice offcourse.

In the defense battle (im playing it pbem at this moment as allied) , my flyboy targeted the enemy tank (i think) but missed ( told my opponent )

Later he strafed my own tanks, no damage.

Monty

[ November 29, 2003, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: Monty ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Monty:

But in scenario's you dont have a choice offcourse.

Once you have the full version, can't you open it in the editor and delete the planes?

As you can see, my experience with the editor is limited.

Michael

[athkatla]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Elmar Bijlsma:

I'm sure this problem would not be nearly so galling if every now and then my troops mis-identified the P-51 and knocked it out of the sky in a hail of .50 fire.

That would just make my day.

"If it flies, it dies," became the watchword of the Allied troops in Tunisia after being bombed and shot up by both sides.

You are not alone.

Michael </font>

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by athkatla:

Quoted from "An Army at Dawn" I believe...

Yes, among others.

Michael

[Cinnamon J. Scudworth]

Heh. I've only gotten around to playing each demo scenario once, but in my one play of "Line of Defense" as the Allies I was actually pretty impressed with the air support.

*Spoilers*

It turned up around turn 5, when I was just starting to bring one infantry platoon forward alongside the road, and my Shermans were starting to crest the ridge. The P-51 did a nice job of strafing and rocketing the first German positions I had spotted (the infantry gun and assorted foxholes on that forward line). It made a couple passes there. By that time, German positions on the other side of the map (the HMG in the two-story building and others) had spotted the aforementioned infantry platoon and began firing. I was able to pull most of the platoon back, but one squad got caught in the open, crawling for cover in the scattered trees. The P-51 pilot must have thought "fresh meat" and wet his pants, or something, because the next action phase had him turn and strafe my poor infantry squad that had gotten separated.

I was actually really impressed by that, as it seemed like exactly what might have happened in real life (though I'm no grog).

Not trying to advocate one position or the other, just adding my own experience.

[Thomas Goetz]

I haven't downloaded the demo, as I decided to wait for the full version instead. I have limited experience with aircraft in any of my CM games, so I can't comment on the frequency of mistaken air attacks. But I thought I'd offer a few comments on the subject from an historical point of view.

First, there should definitely be something in the game to allow friendly AAA fire at any aircraft, unless the situation is part of a carefully planned operation, where the air support was factored in and was known to ground troops in advance. Many Allied aircraft were lost to their own AAA. I'm also sure that many Allied pilots were saved only because the AA gunners were poor shots.

Perhaps the most famous of those killed by friendly ground fire was Major George Preddy, an 8th Air Force ace with some 20 kills, who was shot down during the Battle of the Bulge. Preddy was in hot pursuit of a Fw 190 at treetop level, when they flew over an American unit. The Fw 190 surprised and alerted the US troops, who laid down a curtain of fire for the next plane, which was, unfortunately, Preddy's.

Something I think everyone needs to be reminded of when dealing with CAS during World War II is SPEED. We all get used to being able to take time to look carefully at the battlefield and enemy units. Of course, as gamers, we have much more time than soldiers did in real life.

But a pilot in a plane overhead is moving between 175 and 350 miles per hour. At that speed, especially at low altitudes, it is extremely difficult to even locate, much less identify ground targets. It is only a matter of seconds between first seeing a potential target on the ground and flying past it. Unless there is very clear and unambiguous evidence as to which side the target is on, it is extremely difficult for a pilot to say with any certainty even what the target is (tank? truck? halftrack? sp gun?), never mind which side it's on.

All sides eventually worked out reasonably effective means to identify friend from foe for the flyboys, but even that was not foolproof. for example by late 1944, the 9th Tactical Air Force in Europe had worked out fairly effective tactics to provide on-call CAS. These involved small detachments of circling fighter-bombers (usually P-47 Thunderbolts), dedicated ground-to-air communications to talk to the planes, and the use of various colored smoke signals to indicate targets and friendly units. Even with these measures, mistakes happened.

Without such complex techniques, battlefield CAS, especially if the two sides are pretty much mixed together (and from the air, a separatlion of even a kilometer is almost unnoticable) is very risky for both sides.

I can't really comment on the frequency of mistaken air attacks in CM, and I definitely think there should also be friendly AAA fire, but historically, without pretty sophisticated air-ground tactics and communications, mistaken air attacks should almost be a given.

Just my two cents.

[PeterX]

But a pilot in a plane overhead is moving between 175 and 350 miles per hour. At that speed, especially at low altitudes, it is extremely difficult to even locate, much less identify ground targets.

I don't know what you're talking about. In BB and BO pilots unerringly selected the command vehicle of the highest rated tank platoon on the map. They were great!

[Bastables]

HJ Recce Battalion, SS 2nd Lt Lochbihler March 1945:

".... There we spotted, on the opposite slope, Russians in Battalion strength digging in. Suddenly, seven Russian combat aircraft were overehead... In line with the Russian position they swung left and, when they were right overhead their friends, they unloaded. Russians fired signal flares but all was in vain. After the aircraft had disappeared, two of our SPW crews fired into the disarray."

Units did not even have to be in combat for the flyboys to screw up target identification.

[ December 01, 2003, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: Bastables ]

[Hurryin Heinz]

readin this topic reminded me of a news blip a while back so did a quick search on cnn

snippy

--------------------------------------------------

All eight deaths came in a December 5 incident north of Kandahar. In that incident, and another nine days earlier near Mazar-e Sharif, a B-52 bomber dropped a 2,000-pound (980-kilogram) guided bomb on positions manned by ground troops who were directing air strikes against nearby Taliban targets.

In both those accidents, preliminary findings indicate that confused communications between the ground and air crews resulted in the bombs being programmed to hit friendly ground troops.

--------------------------------------------------

there is a more detailed news item or few there giving the pilot's situation and the long wind of it, but thats the short.

And thats with just about everything we've come up with today to deal with that problem that happens with cas...

[Ant]

Units did not even have to be in combat for the flyboys to screw up target identification.

I know that friendly fire happened. My problem is it's frequency in CM. Maybe I'm just unlucky but from my experiences in CM I've got about a 50/50 chance of friendly air support targetting my own units and I simply don't believe that throughout WW2 CAS missions had a 50% chance of taking out their own troops. If that were the case they simply wouldn't do any CAS missions at all because they'd be wasting time, effort and lives for no gain whatsoever.

[JonS]

Originally posted by Ant:

... I simply don't believe that throughout WW2 CAS missions had a 50% chance of taking out their own troops. ...

Over all CAS missions of all types over the whole war? Probably not.

Over all the CAS missions of the type we see in CM during the time period with which CM is concerned? I think you'll probably find it's closer to 50% than you'd think.

BTW, the western Airforces, in particular, did not like doing "CM-style" CAS in the slightest, and would resist requests for same. They viewed it as a waste of resources and not their problem.

That aside, and FWIW, I don't like planes turning up in CM battles - it turns it all into too much of a lottery.

Regards

JonS

[ December 02, 2003, 04:37 AM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Ant]

Over all CAS missions of all types over the whole war? Probably not.

Over all the CAS missions of the type we see in CM during the time period with which CM is concerned? I think you'll probably find it's closer to 50% than you'd think.

Sorry but I don't understand your reasoning. CMBB is set between 1941 and 1945 which means that if you play a lot of scenarios then you fall into your first statement.

BTW, the western Airforces, in particular, did not like doing "CM-style" CAS in the slightest, and would resist requests for same. They viewed it as a waste of resources and not their problem.

Even more evidence to suggest that if the air force didn't like doing CAS but were, nevertheless, getting requests for it from ground forces then those ground forces must have thought that CAS was worthwhile.

That aside, and FWIW, I don't like planes turning up in CM battles - it turns it all into too much of a lottery.

EXACTLY. You have suggested that ground forces requested CAS even when the air force didn't want to do it. If those ground forces had the same experiences that we CM players have then there would be no requests for CAS because it would be a total lottery with as much chance of getting your own forces killed as the enemy. The fact that CAS missions were requested and flown suggests that the probability of friendly fire was less than we seem to get in CM......as I said about 50% in my experience.

[Hurryin Heinz]

From what little I have read/found about it, friendly fire, esp. from the air to ground, was extreme in ww2..., it wasn't ideal, and wasn't as glorious as the german blitz made it seem to be..., what should be was often different from reality. If you could kindly point to some hard facts or references stating something to the effect that by rookie pilots(line of def scen, green) flying cas support missions in the north african campaign, in cm mission situations, turned less than a 33% ff rate, would be much obliged, since ff is something ugly and inglorious that rarely gets the attention that it deserves in the hell that is war.

Edit: silly grammar mistake

[ December 02, 2003, 05:39 AM: Message edited by: Hurryin Heinz ]

[Michael Emrys]

I am inclined to agree with Ant about the 50% figure, though my own experience represents too small a sample to support firm conclusions. In any event, if the true figure for in-game accidents could be proven to be somewhere around 20% for early and middle war and 10% or a little less for late war, I would regard that as closer to historical reality. Even those figures might be a tad too pessimistic, but at least I think I could live with them.

JMO

Michael

[Ant]

If you could kindly point to some hard facts or references stating something to the effect that by rookie pilots(line of def scen, green) flying cas support missions in the north african campaign, in cm mission situations, turned less than a 33% ff rate, would be much obliged,

OK. Hard facts.

Fact 1. Real life CAS missions were regularly requested and flown.

Fact 2. I seem to be getting an average of 50% Friendly fire with CM CAS missions

Fact 3. If real life CAS missions had a 50% Friendly fire rate then they wouldn't have been requested and flown

Fact 4 See fact 1

Please note that I'm not talking about one particular scenario here, I've got no problem with a 50% friendly fire probability in one particular scenario given the correct circumstances for such. I'm talking about CAS in general in CM. I'm talking about experiencing CAS through CMBO, CMBB and now CMAK.

I have a tendancy, like Michael, to simply say that my personal experiences are too limited or that it's just me being unlucky......but there are an awful lot of CM players on this board that seem to be getting the same experiences with CAS that I'm getting. So I'm starting to think that it's not just me, it's the game. Of course it's too late to do anything about it in CM now; we'll have to wait for CMX2.

I realise the subject of CAS has been discussed to death before but these discussions tend to get dominated by grogs who quote statistics from this document or personal experiences from that book or findings from some other study. These are very interesting in themselves but I tend to think we lose sight of the wood for the trees. I just thought that I'd inject a little basic common sense.

[Hurryin Heinz]

Yah, it is a game that a person plays, not watchs or reads huh. De flyboys don't seem awfully interactive in this incarnation of cm either, though it would be nice if a player could use coloured smoke to bang an area as not a valid target for em, or at least something. Think I finally got yer point, even if it did take a while to get it.

[Monty]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

Once you have the full version, can't you open it in the editor and delete the planes?

As you can see, my experience with the editor is limited.

Michael [/QB]

Yep, we can delete the aircrafts in the editor OR set change the weather to overcast or fog and the planes wont show up.

when i play versus a new pbem opponent i choose always overcast or worse btw to prevent aircrafts.

Monty

[Russkly]

SPOILERAMA...

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Aircraft fired missiles at the Tiger...but missed! Fortunately everyone else surrendered a couple of turns later before the Tigger could take out anything more than 1 Greyhound.

Then returned to strafe German troop positions just in front of the river.

Good so far, right?

Then returned later to take out the commander of one of my Greyhounds! I thought to myself, "I cannot imagine that German CAS really existed in Italy in 1944; but perhaps I'm wrong". Didn't consider it might be friendly fire.

How do you know it is a P51?