Is there a CMAK explosion mod?

[John Kettler]

As noted in CMAK bug & patch request thread, the removal of the shock waves from the game, coupled with transparency effects, has made it hard to see

where fire support is landing, especially mortars of 81mm or less. The problem becomes worse in bad

weather, even at close range, because the contrast ratio drops even further. Rocks and rough aren't much better. The problem seems to lie in the

lack of significant detonation product inclusion in the bursts. In real life, even a hand grenade creates an opaque zone right after the detonation fireball, but from what I've seen, even artillery through 25 pdr. produces little actual opacity, making it hard to see. Has anyone produced an explosion mod yet in which a) the detonation fireballs are brighter, thus more visible and which produces an appropriate dark cloud after the fireball has disappeared? If there isn't, would some kind soul please make one?

In reviewing an infantry use thread in the TacOps Forum, I got to look at video clips of both a conventional Field Artillery shoot at Ft. Sill and a test at White Sands Missile Range in which small bomblets from an ATACMs were used against a simulated target array. In both cases, the detonation clouds were pronounced, dark, and decidedly opaque. Part of the darkness doubtless stems from chunks of the ground blown into the air, too. Here's the link

http://www.usma.edu/dmi/mt/Branches/FA/VideoClips.html

The clips I saw are titled "Fire Mission" and "ATACMS Effects." If memory serves, the M-74 submunitions from the ATACMS have an incendiary effect (zirconium, methinks) in addition to the usual blast and fragmentation effects. This accounts for the peculiar visuals.

Regards,

John Kettler

[ April 08, 2004, 06:43 AM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[Malakovski]

I did one for both BB and AK with just that intent--brighten up the initial flash and darken the ensuing explosion, actually darken and brown the ensuing explosion to simulate all the dirt. It always bothered me that the explosions were of the ridiculuous gasoline-fireball-black-smoke-action-movie type, so I made the attempt to fix it.

I thought it worked very well in BB, at least, I could see even small mortar strikes very clearly, even from zoom level 5. In AK however, the color of the desert reduced the contrast a lot, and even the new explosions don't stand out well.

They're both at the usual place if you're interested...

[Malakovski]

Here's the result in BB:

And in AK:

As you can see, green grass makes a much better background...

[Philippe]

One of the problems with this issue is that I have a sneaking suspicion that the chemical composition of a lot of explosives has changed in the last sixty years. So the only way to be sure that you aren't being too hollywoodish is to look at old photographs of explosions.

There used to be a site that supported Panzer Elite with an extensive collection of WWII photographs of smoke and explosions. The last time I went looking for it it seemed to have been taken down. The Panzer Elite mod community is very active, so I suspect a little time asking questions on their boards about the fate of Joe Cotton's Particle Effects site would produce a lead. By the way, they modded dust clouds into Panzer Elite several years ago, though, to their distress, they never managed to overcome/deconstruct instantaneous shell impacts and zero flight time.

There is a less well-known mod that was issued a couple of years ago by Xavier (I think it was on Appui-Feu) that has a more realistic fireball sans gasoline. The smoke is still rather black, though. [My inexpert interpretation of my memory of Joe's mostly black and white photographs is that the smoke shouldn't be too black -- and that the total explosion effect probably shouldn't be that big and contrasty either. My own personal temporary stopgap has been to combine Xavier's subdued fireball with the end of the smoke sequence of the least obtrusive explosion I could find. I really wish I could take another look at Joe's explosion shots, though. And my impression was that you probably don't really notice a low-caliber mortar explosion that much unless you're up close and looking for it.]

Having said all of that, I'm keenly aware that since I don't make a hobby of burning things and blowing things up, everything that I'm saying is just speculation on what it must have looked like sixty years ago. What we need is a chemistry grog to tell us that the chemicals used in explosives didn't change in the late 'fifties and 'sixties, and even if they did, they would have produced more or less blacker or greyer smoke etc.

I've never seen Malakovski's explosions, but I'll download them directly. And yes, smoke, fire, and explosions were on my CMBO CMMOS to-do list before I retired...

[Philippe]

At the risk of uttering heresy in public, if it's merely a question of making the explosions more visible on the battlefield, Juju's explosions were very well done, though a bit high in hydrocarbon content.

If you want a more authentic look, someone will need to convince me that the initial flash of WWII explosions was or was not as bright as what we see now (isn't zirconium that chemical that burns very quickly with a hot blue flame ?).

From a modding point of view I suspect that the shape of each frame in the explosion sequence should resemble the one that comes before and after it (which is why my own personal solution stinks). If it turns out that WWII explosions should be duller looking, then the best solution would be to convince Xavier to change the color sliders on his mod in Photoshop to make it look a little browner. If not, Malakovski's approach may be better (I haven't taken a look at it in-game yet).

At the end of the day, and as much as I hate to say it, it's your game and you can have anything look the way you want it to (I repeat this to myself like a mantra when dealing with gridded terrain fanatics). Sometimes the visual limitations of the tools that the game engine (or your video card) has to work with makes the less realistic solution preferable. E.g. is it better to have turret numbers on the back, the side, or not at all?

Anyone for pink explosions ?

[ April 08, 2004, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: Philippe ]

[Malakovski]

Originally posted by Philippe:

Anyone for pink explosions ?

I considered this for visibility sake, but never got around to it. I don't know how many mortar strikes I missed because I didn't notice the tiny little explosions, or how many times I heard small arms and couldn't see the tracers. Bright red uniforms and glowing pink tracers start to sound pretty good!

Anyway, my attempt was quite unscientific (no consideration of chemistry to be sure!). Just based on memory of explosions I'd seen in documentaries, which all seemed to involve a nice, bright, brief flash and then a much bigger, brown, and definitely opaque shower of dirt. IMO, it worked pretty well in BB, but the conrast in AK isn't there, and I really don't have the Photoshop skill to do much more than I did. Maybe someone else will have a go at it...

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Malakovski:

Just based on memory of explosions I'd seen in documentaries, which all seemed to involve a nice, bright, brief flash and then a much bigger, brown, and definitely opaque shower of dirt.

If it's any comfort to you, that's how I remember it as well. In addition to films, I've also looked at scores if not hundreds of still photos of explosions, and although you can't gauge the duration of the flash from that, it does confirm the color and density of the consequent debris column. Which, by the way, in the first instant was a very rapidly forming steep-sided cone before it stabilized and began to dissipate.

Michael

[Malakovski]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

Which, by the way, in the first instant was a very rapidly forming steep-sided cone before it stabilized and began to dissipate.

Just what you'd expect from something that sinks into the ground a bit (or a lot, depending) before going boom.

Unfortunately the explosion graphics would seem to be necessarily round in this version of the engine. Perhaps the next will model dirt clods as accurately as the fall of shot...

[Xavier]

Wooo, You can see and download my first and only mod :cool: here:

Xav' explosion

[junk2drive]

thanks for the link to appui-feu, my old bookmark didnt work.

[Philippe]

On a related note, does anyone recall if there is a difference in color between the napalm jet of a flamethrower and the flame produced after the jet ignites a target?

I only ask because I once made a set of jet textures that matched the flavor and color of the flame set that I use (a mod derived from one of Juju's), but then didn't do anything with it when I suddenly realized that the premise may have been wrong. I made the mod in a burst of aesthetic annoyance that the jet and the flame looked different, but now that I can make them look the same, I'm not sure if I should.

Any insights ?

[Juju]

Originally posted by Philippe:

At the risk of uttering heresy in public, if it's merely a question of making the explosions more visible on the battlefield, Juju's explosions were very well done, though a bit high in hydrocarbon content.

LOL! Thanks. Guess they weren't called Hollywood explosions for nothing. By others, that is; wasn't my idea.

[GreenAsJade]

Originally posted by Xavier:

Wooo, You can see and download my first and only mod :cool: here:

Xav' explosion

Does it work with CMAK?

[Juju]

Yes, they all do. The numbering has stayed the same on this one.

[junk2drive]

from juju's readme in the treebase mod for cmbo (cdv se)

"This is my first (and most probably my only) attempt at modding. Any suggestions regarding this mod are most welcome. Even if you think they suck!"

never say never

[John Kettler]

Malakovski,

Is there a Mac version of your mod available? Am presuming "the usual place" is www.cmmods.com What you've done seems to be closer to historical footage in CMAK than in CMBB. Doesn't look anywhere nearly dark enough in the latter case.

Philippe,

You make an excellent point about possible changes in explosive fills to shells since the end of WW II, but having seen not only "World War II in Color" recently, but also other WW II color documentary footage on the History Channel and elsewhere, I am prepared to stick to my guns on the main points I made. Further, I've watched untold hours of WW II B+W footage and looked at thousands of stills. Nowhere do I find transparent shellbursts. The same is true for the stills posted by the guy whose grandfather was a German FO on the Leningrad front during World War II.

Michael Emrys

I agree about the explosion shape, which seems to be the confluence of partial shell burial (Fuze Quick) prior to detonation and the post detonation vacuum effects, effectively a miniature version of what created the characteristic nuclear mushroom cloud. The partially buried shell dissipates its forward blast and frag effects into the ground, with the rest funneling out and up. Years ago I saw some Sparrow warhead test footage and was amazed to see a miniature mushroom cloud form.

I appreciate all the feedback and will take a look at the referenced mods. Thanks one and all!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Malakovski]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

Malakovski,

Is there a Mac version of your mod available? Am presuming "the usual place" is www.cmmods.com What you've done seems to be closer to historical footage in CMAK than in CMBB. Doesn't look anywhere nearly dark enough in the latter case.

Yes, cmmods is the usual place. I'm afraid I don't have access to a Mac or the Mac version of CM, so I don't have the means (or a clue as to how) to make a Mac version. Anyone with such means is welcome to make a conversion, of course.

I'm sure you're right re: accuracy in AK. I was just disappointed that the high visibility improvement in BB was largely negated by the lighter backgrounds.

[Lord Harmes]

Wouldn't the type of explosion you get depend on the weather? I would have thought that explosions happening in the desert would be rather dusty and hang in the air for a while, whilst explosions happening in the mud of Italy would be somewhat less dusty... especially in the rain. The only explosions I have ever seen were from 105mm light guns in thr Royal Artillery... Seeing as we were on the plains os Salibury there what just a puff of light coloured smoke and not much dust... just a lot of mud and turf being thrown about. There was no fireball either just a white flash.

[Juju]

Originally posted by junk2drive:

from juju's readme in the treebase mod for cmbo (cdv se)

"This is my first (and most probably my only) attempt at modding. Any suggestions regarding this mod are most welcome. Even if you think they suck!"

never say never

Point well taken.

[Xavier]

Originally posted by junk2drive:

thanks for the link to appui-feu, my old bookmark didnt work.

Oooos, this is an old link too for a week or two:

The new site is here: http://ns1.strataegis.com/~appuifeu/index.php

But the url will change again soon

[Philippe]

In the spirit of this discussion, I've just posted a minor revision of the cmak explosion in the CMBO section of CMMODS.

It doesn't address all of the concerns that have been raised here, but it does address some of them.

It looks better in CMBO than CMAK because it will appear a bit too brown when seen through the dust clouds. (This shouldn't be a problem if the original CMAK textures didn't bother you, because I only changed the color on one of them). It has a brighter version of the cmak initial explosion, and the fireball has been removed.

There are no pictures available, but in any case the real effect comes from the changed sequencing of the frames.

I've posted it in the hopes that it will inspire Juju and Xavier to produce another generation of explosions along similar lines.

[MikeyD]

You got me thinking, that explosion sequence seems to be tailor-made for 'thinking outside the box" mod-wise. A crazed modder could probably get into alll sort of trouble modding that thing. What about exploding rainbows, or `shooting stars ...or flying squirrels!

As long as you remember to back up tthe original you cound put pretty much anything into tht graphic and watch it explode! :eek:

[Holman]

I dare somebody to mod the explosions into a series of increasingly pissed off smilies...

:eek: :mad:

[Juju]

MikeyD, there's actually a very old, very colourful New Year's version of the CM:BO explosion. Don't know who made it, but I still have it somewhere. It's very pretty.

[Undaunted]

FYI I also posted a little muzzle flash mod on CMMODS. I simply brightened the original bitmaps for the first two frames of the explosion. It was lame, but I like the result.

UD