Blah Blah Blah Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 I have noticed that often the tank fires the machine well before it fires the main gun. This gives the target a warning something bigger is coming. I would not have thought that this was normal practice. Is this a feature or a bug? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirv Sheelon Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 I'm no H'expert but I reckon these are ranging shots. Far as I know, even until maybe late 70's/early 80's, The Chieftain MBT had a 0.5 inch ranging rifle alongside its main cannon. Plus - they could be trying to rattle the enemy crew, maybe give themselves an extra second or two to knock them out with their main gun. Smash periscopes, maybe get that lucky shot into an opening? [ December 12, 2003, 05:17 AM: Message edited by: Mirv Sheelon ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Mirv is correct, they are ranging shots fired from the co-axial MG. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Though 'ranging shots' is the usual term a more accurate term may be aiming shots. Out to a certain distance the trajectories of the coax mg and the main gun coincide. If everything's properly alligned, when the mg rounds fall onto the target the gunner then fires the cannon with a reasonable chance of a first round hit. This of course doesn't work at longer ranges. In Vietnam the M48 tank commander had the ability to override the gunner and fire the weapon himself. I believe using the coax mg to aim with was his only way to aim the cannon. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzertruppe Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Yep, ranging shots...although taking out the tank commander is useful also! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeatEtr Posted December 13, 2003 Share Posted December 13, 2003 Originally posted by Mirv Sheelon: maybe get that lucky shot into an opening? Is this modeled in any of the CM games? I know the odds of it actually happening would be in the extreme. I guess the only way to tell is if anybody has seen MG fire give a casualty to a buttoned up tank. Does anybody know if its even possible? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted December 13, 2003 Share Posted December 13, 2003 from what i've seen on these here forums it's not possible to have the MG do any damage, even morale damage, to crew behind suitable armour. a 50 cal against a HT - yes. an MG42 against a JS2 - nope. and i always thought the MG fire was to button the TC & give a slight spotting advantage. you live and learn i suppose. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 13, 2003 Share Posted December 13, 2003 Originally posted by Other Means: and i always thought the MG fire was to button the TC & give a slight spotting advantage.As much as anything, if it were done in real life, it was probably done to rattle the other crew and let them know there was someboody out there with hostile intent. But I suspect that in the game it is just a holdover from the code that has the tank fire its coax, and any other MGs that can be brought to bear, on personnel units while the main gun is being loaded and aimed. I think the likelihood of the ballistics of any average MG matching the ballistics of any average main gun round for any significant portion of its trajectory is exceedingly slim. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tittles Posted December 13, 2003 Share Posted December 13, 2003 In the case of a Panther tank, its absolutely wrong. The AP round does not follow the same trajectory. The HE round and the MGs had a similar tarjectory for the 75mmL70 though. Tanks use tracers with the MGs. It would be very silly to show the enemy tanks where you are by firing tracer. So if firing from an ambush position, its doubtful that MGs would be used. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blah Blah Blah Posted December 14, 2003 Author Share Posted December 14, 2003 Unfortunately, when using 'key' holes to ambush or when a tank stops just inside the view zone it only seems to have the effect of warning the enemy and allowing them to escape. I have seen many chances missed because the enemy has reversed out of site before the main gun could come to bear. In my opinion this needs correcting. If they could get the machine gun not fire until the main gun come to bear and was ready to fire or maybe if using a armour arc then no machine, or an ambush arc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tittles Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 Yes, blue covered arc=no MG. great idea. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalin's Organ Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 WW2 tanks did not use ranging machineguns. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tar Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 I always thought that the reason for firing the MGs was to button up the enemy tank and thus delay spotting and return fire. This is, of course, rendered somewhat less effective by borg spotting, but I though CM still has some targetting delays based on being buttoned or not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 The ballistics of main gun and MG are different, however that still means that you can use it for ranging at parts of the ranges depending on how you adjust the gun and the gun. For example you can adjust it so that both projectiles fall at the same point in - say - 800m. It definitivly beats a completely blind estimation. From my reading I only remember this being used for HE shots on infantry (e.g. Tank! by Ken Tout IIRC) but I don't remember a reference that it was used for anti-tang shots. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 Originally posted by tar: I always thought that the reason for firing the MGs was to button up the enemy tank and thus delay spotting and return fire. This is, of course, rendered somewhat less effective by borg spotting, but I though CM still has some targetting delays based on being buttoned or not. I doubt that this is useful. Situation 1: enemy tank is facing you: Remember the gunner is not buttoned up to start from and the muzzle flashes of the MG will ease his spotting and aiming. Situation 2: enemy tank is facing elsewhere and TC didn't spot you yet. It is certainly better not to tip off the tank commander where you are, he will hear approximately where on the clock you are and shout that to the gunner. Just opening main gun fire is certainly the better option. In a word, I like the ranging theory better but as I said I don't remember reading about any MG shots on enemy tanks before opening with the main gun. Any soucres? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalin's Organ Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 In CM buttoned vehicles take longer to aquire targets - in "real life" you might take a pot shot to try to KO the commander and he's much less likely to spot a MG firing than a main gun, plus he's going to spend seconds getting down and into his fighting positoin - the gunner will be "buttoned" anyway probably if htey're expecting action. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blah Blah Blah Posted December 14, 2003 Author Share Posted December 14, 2003 Originally posted by Stalin's Organ: In CM buttoned vehicles take longer to aquire targets A lot good that does me when the tank has moved out of site, so I can't target him. I also would say that would only be a relevant statement when you haven't been spooted by his borg mate from accross the paddock. [ December 14, 2003, 05:23 AM: Message edited by: Blah Blah Blah ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 Originally posted by Stalin's Organ: In CM buttoned vehicles take longer to aquire targets - in "real life" you might take a pot shot to try to KO the commander and he's much less likely to spot a MG firing than a main gun, plus he's going to spend seconds getting down and into his fighting positoin - the gunner will be "buttoned" anyway probably if htey're expecting action. The gunner doesn't even have a hatch, so yes he's "buttoned up anyway". The TC is less likely to spot a MG, but the MG doesn't kill the tank, that's why the MG is probably used for ranging if at all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Originally posted by Blah Blah Blah: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Stalin's Organ: In CM buttoned vehicles take longer to aquire targets A lot good that does me when the tank has moved out of site, so I can't target him. I also would say that would only be a relevant statement when you haven't been spooted by his borg mate from accross the paddock. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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