Interesting tidbit-your call

[Tagwyn]

Corvidai: Are you referring to the US? If so, you can take that Kool-aide crap and stuff it!! We don't need that either. I agree with JasonC. Tag

[JasonC]

People spit their politics on me, they can expect to get my politics right back. They don't want it, they can keep their own politics to themselves. Or better still, they can leave. Or better still, they can die and be damned. But none of that is about CM.

Now *this* is about CM -

That was 2 battalions of SS Infantry, June 1944, destroyed by one company of T-34/85s with SMG tank riders (Guards Mech) and a 120mm radio FO. In rural woods.

Oh and just for fun, the Russians got a little prep fire - 192 rockets, a regiment of 152s, another of 122 guns (all firing right after the rockets). Then a rolling barrage from 122 howitzers for the next ten minutes (target wide by 3 FOs at a time, with "lifts"). The 8 Russian casualties were mostly from short rounds.

Now *that* is entertainment.

[ November 06, 2005, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Erik, if it is any comfort, there are some here who understand what they read. I do not consider you a Nazi, nothing you wrote would lead me to that conclusion.

JasonC, you read him wrong. I suggest you stop digging that hole and admit your mistake.

On a point vaguely on topic.

In adition to true belevers and opportunist a large recruiter for the Dutch SS was an opposition of communism based on religious grounds. AFAIK the SS was the only way these people could take up arms, so some Dutch volunteers got into bed with a terrible ally.

And Erik is absolutely right about the motivations provided for "Johnny", they are indeed bogus. Only in the winter of 44/45 would there have been any hunger in The Netherlands so as a justification for this guys joining up it is totally false.

[Erik Springelkamp]

OK, Sergei, thank you.

I'm still a bit edgy by Jason's treatment :eek:

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Zalgiris 1410:

To be fair about Johnny the SS Dutchman, while I'm assuming that he served in the 'Westland' Regiment of the 5th SS 'Wiking' Pz/Pz Gren Div, I don't think that it murdered anyone as part of the holicaust or for Liebensraum AFAIK. It spent most of its time in the front line, or refitting or reforming to rush back immidiately into it and consequently spent little if any time in the rear zone. I'm not aware of this formation having perpertrated any massacres of Soviet civilians, Jews, Gypsies or Commissars nor of conducting any 'capture no prisioners' episodes either during all the time it served on the Eastern Front.

While 5 SS has long been seen as a 'clean' unit, there is now apparently evidence that it was involved in mass-murder of Jews early during Barbarossa, during July 41 near L'vov IIRC.

All the best

Andreas

[Santosdiablo]

Uhm Hitler is dead

The Soviets Buried his corpse near some milatery base in Germany

And a pice of his skull was sent to Stalin and now it is in the Russian Archives

Also during the 70s the base was going to change hands so they dug up Hitlers remains grinded them down into dust and let them into a near by river

When Russian forces reached the Chancellory, they exhumed his body and performed an autopsy, using dental records (and German dental assistants who were familiar with them) to confirm the identification. To avoid any possibility of creating a potential shrine, the remains were then secretly buried by SMERSH at their new headquarters in Magdeburg. In April 1970, when the facility was about to be turned over to the East German government, the remains were reportedly exhumed, thoroughly burned and disposed of in the Elbe River.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler#Path_to_defeat

That was made by the absolute top kgb agent of the day the director him self

Also the order was signed by only the top people includeing Breschnev.

So Hitler beeing in South America is just a myth

If you want to visit him goto the russian archives and say hello to a pice of his skull

Also Hitler was born 1889 so there is no way he is still alive

[Erik Springelkamp]

People spit their politics on me, they can expect to get my politics right back. They don't want it, they can keep their own politics to themselves. Or better still, they can leave. Or better still, they can die and be damned.

Sounds awfully close to Fascist politics.

[JasonC]

Yep, I'm a facist, in a racist a bigot and right handed, but I don't make excuses for Nazi traitors and I have fun blowing up entire battalions of little CM ubersturmbanhamstertruppenfuhrers, while you lot...

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Santosdiablo:

Uhm Hitler is dead

Yes, that's what he wants YOU to believe.

[Dead Horse]

Originally posted by Sergei:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Santosdiablo:

Uhm Hitler is dead

Yes, that's what he wants YOU to believe. </font>

[Fußball]

Originally posted by Sergei:

I'm just saying that there actually is at least one Nazi frequenting this forum and several others have been banned before.

I'm sorry, I must not have been clear enough. I meant the people that have posted in this thread.

I put in a reqeust for this thread to be closed before it gets out of hand.

Tschüß!

Erich

[Andrew H.]

Jason has a point. Not WRT Erik, IMO, but certainly wrt the original poster, who wrote:

Anyway, a nice old vet. I respect the hell out of him, and anyone like him.

and

Johhny's a good Man, even If he did serve a bad cause long ago.

Both of those sentiments are offensive and stupid: there is no reason to "respect" anyone who, after his country was conquered by the Nazis, volunarily *joined* the Nazis and fought in their army, essentially in an attempt to keep Holland German.

I should point out that unlike German soldier, Dutch volunteers weren't even drafted - unlike many young men, he had the choice not to fight for the Nazi regime and he went out of his way to fight for the Nazis. Who, I'll mentioned again, had conquered his own country and killed many of his fellow citizens, first during the hot part of the war and then later while fighting the resistance (although wrt resistance, there was usually some torture between the fighting and the death).

The main point is not whether this guy fought in the SS, or whether his SS unit was clean (althought that's a subsidiary point). The main point is that this guy turned against his own people and joined the German army. I don't see anything worthy of respect in his actions, although I think I may understand his reason for emigrating from the netherlands.

[PzKpfwIII]

Originally posted by Andrew H.:

Jason has a point. Not WRT Erik, IMO, but certainly wrt the original poster, who wrote:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Anyway, a nice old vet. I respect the hell out of him, and anyone like him.

and

Johhny's a good Man, even If he did serve a bad cause long ago.

Both of those sentiments are offensive and stupid: there is no reason to "respect" anyone who, after his country was conquered by the Nazis, volunarily *joined* the Nazis and fought in their army, essentially in an attempt to keep Holland German.

I should point out that unlike German soldier, Dutch volunteers weren't even drafted - unlike many young men, he had the choice not to fight for the Nazi regime and he went out of his way to fight for the Nazis. Who, I'll mentioned again, had conquered his own country and killed many of his fellow citizens, first during the hot part of the war and then later while fighting the resistance (although wrt resistance, there was usually some torture between the fighting and the death).

The main point is not whether this guy fought in the SS, or whether his SS unit was clean (althought that's a subsidiary point). The main point is that this guy turned against his own people and joined the German army. I don't see anything worthy of respect in his actions, although I think I may understand his reason for emigrating from the netherlands. </font>

[zmoney]

Corvidae, people like you are ridiculous. To my knowledge the people of germany arn't being respressed by some empire. In fact the economy is great, maybe even because that evil empire helped them get back on their feet. So open your stupid comment makeing eyes.

It shouldn't matter how old someone is, if they committed crimes then they should pay.

[JasonC]

Treason is not a point of view, it is a capital crime. Next idiotic position, please.

[PzKpfwIII]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Treason is not a point of view, it is a capital crime. Next idiotic position, please.

You're arguing semantics now; soldiers can only be considered brave when fighting for the country in which they were born? The Dutch SS volunteers felt they were doing that. The Dutch themselves admit to being one of the most reactionary nations in Europe. As for their treason, what happened to the surviving Dutch SS after the war? The answer might surprise you.

The handful of English SS men were treated unevenly; ringleaders were hanged, some got off scot free (of the survivors, few were paragons of intellect).

Capital crime? NATO stood for many of the same things those Dutch SS men stood for. You take issue with the fact they fought for the armed forces of a nation other than that in which they were born.

Your view of all this is extremely simplistic and far too black and white.

[JasonC]

Who said anything about "brave"? Who cares about "brave"? Brave is a dime a dozen, the question before the house is, is he a criminal? And the answer is yes. Treason consists in aiding the enemies of one's own country. Contrary to modern ideological beliefs, individuals are not in charge of their own foreign policies. If your country is at war with state X and you enlist in the armed forces of state X, you are a traitor and have committed a capital crime. There is no weaseling about it. If you are let off for some reason, it doesn't make you innocent, any more than murdering your mother is OK if you aren't caught. When, moreover, the cause you are furthering is one of the greatest crimes in world history, you are stained black as pitch and nothing will ever wash it away. And idiots apologizing for it now and pretending it is the height of idealism and heroism, are neo Nazi punks and should F*** OFF.

[JasonC]

Earlier in the thread a poster assumed this sort must have been in 5SS. Actually there was a separate brigade sized formation of Dutch SS. It did not have a "clean" record. It participated in anti-partisan fighting in northern Russia in its first stint there, before being put in the line. Later it was reformed in Yugoslavia, and gained a nasty reputation fighting Tito's partisans in Croatia. It then went back to the line in northern Russia and saw hard fighting at the front. Later in the retreat to Kurland it faced partisan activity again (some of them Estonians no longer siding with Germany), and routinely shot civilians in retaliation.

The political head was assassinated by the Dutch resistence during the war. The brigade commander was tried for the Yugoslavia stuff after and sentence to death.

Meanwhile, the queen was in London and continued to resist from exile. The Dutch fought for the Dutch East Indies alongside the Brits and Australians in the ABDA command. After losing Java, Dutch submarines and a few squadrons carried on from bases in Australia and later New Guinea. The Dutch resistence was also active throughout the war, aiding downed allied airmen, trying to hide Jews, and trying to free captured resistence fighters.

Nazis are not NATO and it is apologetic pro-Nazi propaganda to pretend they were. Siding with them was taking arms against their own sovereign and their own fellow countrymen still in arms. It was treason plain and simple, and the motive was agreement in all essentials with Nazi ideology. It is not complicated nor is it excusable. Peddle revisionist neo-Nazi apologetics someplace else. Or better still don't. Or better still, die and be damned.

[PzKpfwIII]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Nazis are not NATO and it is apologetic pro-Nazi propaganda to pretend they were. Siding with them was taking arms against their own sovereign and their own fellow countrymen still in arms. It was treason plain and simple, and the motive was agreement in all essentials with Nazi ideology. It is not complicated nor is it excusable. Peddle revisionist neo-Nazi apologetics someplace else. Or better still don't. Or better still, die and be damned.

I know that, and you know that, but to an eighteen year old reactionary Dutch Nazi, things probably seemed a little more ... unfocussed ... would you agree with that at least?

If we can't agree on the muddle-headedness of 18 year old males as being universal, I fear we may not agree on anything. Pity, I rather liked the excellent comments you made in the CM:C forum re: reserves.

[stoat]

What do you need to know? Your country is at war with Germany. You willingly choose to fight alongside the enemy of your country. How can that become muddled? It doesn't matter how old you are, treason is treason.

[PzKpfwIII]

Originally posted by stoat:

What do you need to know? Your country is at war with Germany. You willingly choose to fight alongside the enemy of your country. How can that become muddled? It doesn't matter how old you are, treason is treason.

The war was over in a few days; they were occupied by Germany by that point...

Incidentally, did Germany ever actually declare war on The Netherlands?

In seriousness though, the war in the Soviet Union was billed as an international crusade against communism; the Dutch SS weren't fighting other Dutch soldiers, they were fighting communists. I don't want to sound like I am defending them, just offering an alternative point of view. One person killing his mother, to further that example, and asking "am I a criminal" doesn't illicit much sympathy, but an entire nation fighting to subjugate a continent and perform genocide on 10 million innocents starts to beg some bigger questions. Especially when tens of thousands of their neighbours start flocking to the colours to help. The Dutch SS formations were sizeable, but not noted for being either isolated instances or the largest examples of such; there were similar legions from across Europe.

Did these thousands of men really consider themselves criminal?

[stoat]

I think the state of war could be implied by the tanks, men and planes invading Dutch ground and airspace. I think it could be implied by the tens of thousands of dead Dutchmen in the 5 days it took the Germans to seize the country. I think it could be implied by the bombing of an "open" city resulting in 40,000 deaths.

It was an international effort, sure. But does that mean the Frenchmen, the British, the Danes, and all the others were less guilty of treason than the Dutch. Of course not. They were just as guilty. Who is to say a Dutchman that had fled the Nazis hadn't taken up arms with Russia to help free his country? All of a sudden, you have Dutchmen fighting each other. This doesn't even matter, fighting for the enemy of your country is treason, you don't have to kill your countrymen to be guilty.

I agree, 50,000+ men is a sizable chunk of the population. They almost certainly didn't think of themselves as criminals. But they were. They were traitors. While they fought on the Eastern Front they freed up Germans to brutally tyrannize their country, and kill, rape, and torture the true patriots that struggled to thwart the Axis and to help the Allies no matter the cost.

[ November 06, 2005, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: stoat ]

[BCGOVT]

CM Gamers all (Whom responded) -Sorry I mentioned it. He happens to be an old man whom drinks too much, and is (In my opinion) Genuinley a nice man. Now, and, here. What he did, what he was like, what his motivations were 60 +/- years ago are, and always will be, between himself and whatever higher power he acknowledges, if any. I just thought it unusual, and worth mentioning, that one of "their" vets was still alive and kicking. Had been there and done that. I've mentioned CMBB to him, but he dosen't quite get it...

As a former Soldier, I respect anyone who's legitimatley Soldiered for an Established armed and recognized force, espescially when the circumstances are bad. Soldiering anywhere/anytime/anyhow is difficult enough anyway. If you've never been there, done it, then I hope you make your judgements accordingly. As I said originally, "It's your call". Obviously, I touched a nerve, without intending to. You've have many opinions related to this, many of them very bitter or so it seems. One of the rights of the Victor, is to Forgive the Vanquished. And if you can't forgive, then remember, and never allow the past to repeat. Was it a Horrible time/place/situation? Too much has been written to even bother to delve into it further in my opinion...To me, and anyone who's had a beer with "Johhny", he's a former enemy soldier. Absolutley things were tough for him and his. As they were for every man woman and child involved All Over the World. Are there those whom hate him here? I'm sure. There are certainly those whom won't speak to him, nor have a beer with him. Personally, it was before my time. He never makes an issue of it, and has always been very reluctant to discuss it. I Personally apologize for even Mentioning it, and will refrain in future from discussing any non-CM related topics. I wish to take a moment to thank Dey and Phillipe for their comments and assistance with a file copying Issue. Thanks again both. And........Yes, I am A "New Guy" (Obviously) I Didn't realize such passion/controvesy could arise. Curious-Several people have intimated, that there have been (ARE?) Actual Nazi's on here? People have been Banned? Are We Talking American Nazi Party? Canadian? (Is there A Canadian NaziParty??-I doubt it) National Front from the UK? How do people know/what was said? And most Importantly...........WHY?? What's the point of bugging a war same site?

Again-Peace to all-JHW (BCGOVT)

[Andreas]

'He seems like a genuinely nice man.' That reminds me of the comment of a younger relative of a 1. Gebigsdivision vet made into a TV camera at their reunion this year (IIRC). There were protests outside the meeting because 1. Gebirgsdivision was involved in wholesale slaughter of Italian POWs on Kephallonia, and in retaliatory mass-murder of Greek civlians. What the relative said was along the lines of 'Just have a look at them, do you really think they could have committed such crimes?'

But we know they did, no matter what kind of nice cuddly octogenarians they are now.

All the best

Andreas

[Kanonier Reichmann]

If anyone has seen the film Gloomy Sunday it depicts rather nicely a pretty despicable SS character who was based in Prague during the war but later appeared as a highly repectable & well liked businessman when we flash forward to the nineties. It also showed rather poetically that people's memories run deep.

Regards

Jim R.