Scenario probable outcome CMBB versus CMBO?

[markshot]

I have played about six battles so far.

I was just curious if others agree with this perception?

In CMBO, the percentage victory display for both sides seems to be a much better indicator of who the actual victor will be at the end of the scenario than in CMBB. Variable number of turns aside, I find that you can get to the end thinking you have the flags and find out that you don't have them when the AAR comes up. The last game I played, the numbers were all saying a draw, and then, a cease fire was enforced on both sides and I found out that I had a major victory. Much to my surprise!

Another thing I noticed is different is that once CMBB shows who has the flag in a turn, it stays that way even though you rewind the movie.

In short, it seems to me that in CMBB, you should just fight hard and not pay too much attention to the victory percentages.

Comments?

[Hensworth]

I too have been struggling with the exact meaning of the percentages and the flag exchanges during play.

I get the impression that a flag is shown to be in the hands of a side as perceived by your force. I.e. if enemy forces are known or thought to be in the area, the flag will be shown as theirs.

The same about the scores. When you occupy a VL your score will go up, but your opponent will not necessarily see this.

At least that's the best theory I have been able to come up with. It doesn't explain everything I see happening though.

[Redwolf]

The majority of points in CM battles is given by casulties, not flags. That applies both to Quickbattles and most scenarios. There are just not enough flags on the map to make them count if both sides clash heavily.

Flag control is more complex in CMBB than in CMBO and wasn't easy then either (or documented).

[Sergei]

With Extreme FOW on, you have far less knowledge of how big damage you have caused on your enemy until the carnage is over. That is a big factor, like Redwolf said.

[MikeyD]

I recall fighting one battle to a 'draw', then at the end finding to my horror half the AI's forces had flanked me and were occupying the big flags to my rear! I went from 'draw' to 'major defeat'! I don't recall that ever happening in CMBO.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

I recall fighting one battle to a 'draw', then at the end finding to my horror half the AI's forces had flanked me and were occupying the big flags to my rear! I went from 'draw' to 'major defeat'! I don't recall that ever happening in CMBO.

This is exactly why BB is so much better. You, the battlefield commander, have limited knowledge of the enemy. I think its great to find out that things aren't they way I assumed.

Others may not.

[Joachim]

During my last battles I noticed that the victory percentages went up with lost units. The bigger the carnage, the bigger the percentages (for the AI and me) that were shown.

Without any flag (out of 1700pts) captured, and all flags "unknown", I saw the percentages evolve. Let's call this the casaulty score (CS), for pl 1 and 2 (CS1, CS2)

Then I captured a small flag, and the percentage changed a bit. Let's call the flag score (FS) the score you get for holding flags. Of course, if you "think" you hold a flag, you will have a perceived flag score, which might not be true after the fog lifts.

Guestimated formula during game:

CS1 + FS1 + CS2 + FS2 + Value of "unknown" flags = 100

If you score (CS1 + FS1 = ) 16, the oppenent (CS2 + FS2=) score 4 and all flags are "unknown" (thus FS1 and FS2 = 0), then the point value of all flags equals 80% in the outcome. E.g. if you control half the flags in the end, it would be 80/2+16 = 56 vs 80/2+4 = 44.

If you then hold all the flags, it is 96:4 (CS1 = 16, FS 1 = 80)

Another example:

If you hold one small flag out of 1000 pts, and the enemy has a big flag and the score is 40:24,

you have CS1 + FS1 + CS2 + FS2 + unknown flags = 100

Thus unknown flags make up for 100 - 40 - 24 = 36 points in the score, so 600 (=1000-100-300) pts for flags are worth 36. This means 100 pts in flags are 6% for the score.

So you get:

CS 1 = 40 - 6 = 34

CS 2 = 24 - 18 = 6

Now when the smoke has settled and the battle ends, these scores (that evolve during the game) will be the base for the overall scores.

If the enemy holds all the remaining flags, he will get 6 + 18 + 36 = 60, while you will stay at 40.

If you manage to get some more flags (without any further casualties, so the casualty rate stays at CS1:CS2 = 34:6) your score will go up accordingly.

If all flags are held by somebody in the end, this formula seems to hold.

I don't know what happens with disputed flags in the end, whether they are just ignored (ie they don't exist) when the point value of all flags is calculated to get the end result, or if they are counted.

Say you have 34:6 again and both hold 300 points of flags.

This could get 100-34-6 = 60 5 divided for 600 points in controlled flags, so both players get their share of 30, resulting in 34+30= 64 : 36,

or if each small flag is still worth 60/1000*100 = 6% as above. Then we would get

34+18 = 52 : 24 = 6+18.

IIRC CMBB boosts the score to a total of 100, so 52:24 is boosted to 52*(100/(52+24)) : 24 * (100/(52+24)) resulting in 68,4:31,6 or 68:32

Note that the model is not based on a big amount of data, so it may only apply in certain cases. It evolved during a 50+ game where I fought thru a city and wanted to see whether I had to press harder to achieve victory while strong counterattacks by the AI slowed me down.

If you don't want to do the math:

The flag values in points are fixed, but the casualty scores are not, and thus the value in percent of the total score of a given flag is not fixed, but decreases with casualties. Read: The more slaughter, the less important the flags.

Always remember kids: Do this at home!

Gruß

Joachim

[ May 30, 2003, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: Scarhead ]

[securityguard]

I completely ignore the flags unless they are more than 2, then I might head towards the smaller ones to get a bonus for the end game.

CMBB is all about casualties. Especially in Quick Battles with only one flag - why bother trying to 'hold' the flag when you can just wreck havoc on your opponent and get just as much points?

This can sometimes end up in a draw though, if you take casualties while performing heavier casualties on the flag holding opponent. Depending on who you play as. I always recommend a infantry smearing force. As germans I usually get one 150mm gun to do that for me.

I also recommend not doing anything dumb with your armor - its a HUGE amount of points. Be as careful as possible, even if that sounds like common sense. Some people go "this tank isn't doing anything so i'll march it over here!" which is really bad thinking. Its a big risk losing any type of soft armor/AFV

[ May 30, 2003, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: securityguard ]