Charlie901 Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 I know the Russians had a lot outside of Moscow and at Kursk. Just wondering why they weren't included? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 It wasn't due to lack of begging! Actually, I suspect they weren't able to (or willing to) stray too too far from the baseline CMBO engine. Some suggestions sounded really cool, but I shudder to think how much rejiggering the game code would've been involved to bring them about, and to retest everything to make sure it all still worked. [ June 12, 2003, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow 1st Hussars Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Why not just use roadblocks to simulate them? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Roadblocks work as Dragon's Teeth, but not really as AT ditches. Might try a combination of roadblocks and trenches. Still not quite right, because part of the point of AT ditches is they can be rather hard to see until you are right up next to them. In QBs, it is out of the question to create realistic obstacle belts, though, because all these items are too expensive compared to maneuver units to be as common on the battlefield as they actually were. Look at a map of WW I defense systems sometime. Ever see anything remotely like it on a CM map? I sure haven't. In QBs I see little forts of half a dozen trenches at the outside. In the real deal, there were multiple lines of continuous trenches running for miles, with traverses and switch lines, etc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hensworth Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Is an AT ditch not something which can be simulated with the available terrain features ? I can think of a number of gulleys with banks with varying degrees of steepness and different terrain type on the floor, depending on how impassable you want them to be. Granted, they won't appear in QBs but then I adhere to the school of thought that QBs are not going to get you the full experience of CMBB anyway. Just throw it on the QB scrapheap where rivers and realistic looking towns are already rusting. An ME where one side gets to build an instant AT ditch is a nonsense anyway. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 The problem with using roadblocks (even thought that is what I use) is that they can't be breached. Tank ditches can be by digging in the sides. You can simulate the look by putting trenches in front of road blocks but again you can't breach them. This is also a big problem with creating them with terrain editing. Another is that it pins the defender to specific ground since you can't move them during setup. A normal tank ditch has the ditch in front of a berm (the berm is on the defender's side) so they are quite easy to spot but tank ditches are turning obsticals. You put them where you don't want the enemy to go so that he will go where you want him to, preferably into your minefields and fields of fire. To me, of all the things in the CM series that I would love to see given a lot of attention it is the entire range of engineering tasks and objects. My short list is: Minefields as paintable areas rather than little squares. Various AT obsticals. Breachable wire. Engineer laid mines. Just for starters at least. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooz Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 Maybe this will come with the new engine? Hope so. I would add the ability to build pontoon bridges under fire to the list--not for battles (unless these have 60+ turns or more) but definitely for ops. I think having ops where one side is building a bridge under fire while crossing the river in boats (ah yes, better boats please) will open up more situations we can recreate. This is a MUST IMHO if and when, BFC takes on the Blitzkrieg. Engineers breaching walls with demos would also be welcomed. I find that without this option, the city fights in CM are not as realistic as they can be. For example, if you were in Stalingrad, and had to get from one rowhouse into the next, do you think they really dashed outside into the street, then dash into the adjacent building. They could try... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tabpub Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 Oh, God...it's the "Combat Mission: Battlefield Engineering" game thread coming back to life!! KILL IT! KILL THE MONSTER!! BRING THE FIRE! FIRE I SAY!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M1A1TC Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 I think it would also be cool to have a combat medic unit in the game, ambulances, etc 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 You can use regular ditches in Rough Terrain; vehicles can't pass, but troops can still use them for cover. Or, sink an entire Rough tile by a level or two if you want to simulate a very, very deep ditch. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogdan Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 Originally posted by Charlie901: I know the Russians had a lot outside of Moscow and at Kursk. Just wondering why they weren't included? Charlie901, please look at this thread, it may helps you... this thread 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou2000 Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 Tank ditches can be by digging in the sides Engineer laid mines. Just MHO ...................... If you take the 'average' CMBB game as being about 30 turns - that equates to 30 mins.... Hardly enough time to perform these actions ... especially if under fire ! combat medic unit in the game, ambulances, etc The medic ... maybe OK ... the ambulance - No thanks. {as mentioned in your other thread} Medics would be no good for getting troops back into the fight due to the time scale ... I doubt it would have much of an effect on preventing routing etc ..... Yeah if I was getting cut to bits by enemy fire, knowing there was a medic nearby would be nice .... but I wouldnt stop running just because some guy with a bandage and a red cross on his hat was sitting next to me Perhaps a factor in the scoring for KIA vs Casualties, but would probably be best just be factored into the Bn (or Coy) HQ units stats rather than an individual unit 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 A squad or two of pioneers can collapse the sides of a tank ditch rather quickly and can lay a surface minefield in a matter of a few minutes. Actually I would agree with you on the time factor were it not for the fact that time is already greatly compressed for engineers. How long does it take CMBB pioneers to clear a minefield? How long does it take in real life? Even without being fired at finding, clearing, proofing, and marking a minefield by hand takes a really long time. We are talking nearly an hour for your typical single CMBB sized minefield. Especially when each mine has to be found (a regular minefield, not a daisy-chain or surface laid) checked for anti-handling devices, dug up, and then made safe. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq): A squad or two of pioneers can collapse the sides of a tank ditch rather quickly and can lay a surface minefield in a matter of a few minutes. Actually I would agree with you on the time factor were it not for the fact that time is already greatly compressed for engineers. How long does it take CMBB pioneers to clear a minefield? How long does it take in real life? Even without being fired at finding, clearing, proofing, and marking a minefield by hand takes a really long time. We are talking nearly an hour for your typical single CMBB sized minefield. Especially when each mine has to be found (a regular minefield, not a daisy-chain or surface laid) checked for anti-handling devices, dug up, and then made safe. Are they really clearing an entire 20x20 tile, though, or can we presume they are clearing a single line, and marking a safe lane with engineer's tape? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 In the game they clear the whole thing. Even clearing a lane though takes much longer than is portraid. In actuality it would take about as long as a typical CMBB battle, depending on the density. (There's a suggestion, variable density minefields.) Of course if they had then clear lanes then the AI would have to deal with entry and exit angles, width of the breach, the possibility of the enemy reseeding the field if it wasn't secured, etc. They don't get a lot of the glory but engineers do a heck of a lot more on the battlefield than they are given credit for. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbertles Posted June 14, 2003 Share Posted June 14, 2003 Wish list haiku: Dragon's teeth, horses Motorcycles with sidecars What's next, Sov dog mines? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted June 14, 2003 Share Posted June 14, 2003 Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq): In the game they clear the whole thing. Even clearing a lane though takes much longer than is portraid. In actuality it would take about as long as a typical CMBB battle, depending on the density. (There's a suggestion, variable density minefields.) Well, the point I was trying to inelegantly make is that in terms of "game effect", the graphic you see on screen (the demo charge blowing the minefield and having it disappear) might very well really only represent a path being marked through the 20 metre path. I mean, they really didn't walk mortars like a boy walking his dog, we just have to live with the graphical portrayals. Never did figure out why they chose to use demo charges for "clearing" minefields... Then again, how many engineers "knew" that enemy minefields would be present in perfect 20 metre tiles, either. Variable density would be good - why not placing mines at random across the map, or selected areas, or, for the truly anal - one at a time, like we do with shellholes in the map editor? Of course, that would require tracking the location of every man that walks on the map, which isn't currently done, and a host of other problems in AI vehicle pathing, etc.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted June 14, 2003 Share Posted June 14, 2003 That's one of the big reasons I would like it if they made minefields a kind of paint on feature. So many points would get you so many square meters of medium density minefields. If you make it bigger the density goes down, smaller it goes up. Adds lots of tactical possibilities for both sides. Do you risk that the minefield in front of you is low density and just made to get your attention or is it a deathtrap? Can you trust your flank to a few mines you know the enemy will spot and hopefully be to scared to cross? Things like that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undead reindeer cavalry Posted June 16, 2003 Share Posted June 16, 2003 i was fairly disappointed when i found out that there were no dragons teeth etc even in battles taking place in Finland. i mean, how are the Finns supposed to defend against them hordes of Soviet tanks & artillery evils? but then again, who would possibly want to play the Finn vs Soviet battles anyway. "first we walk for hours in the woods, then i fires me rifle and then you fires yours. ha ha." boooring. no king tigers, no fun at all. and now that i'm into it, what's with not being able to play Finns vs Nazis? there is no justice in the world. THERE IS NO GOD. my lust for life has now died. there is no joy in life. my heart now pumps black zombie blood. thanks a lot battlefront.com, thanks a lot. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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