mchlstrt Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 I gather there wasa thread on this but I haven't been able to find it with a search. The Mac downsamples all/some textures one step automatically? How do Mac Modders deal with this? Work @ hires & hope it looks ok to Winderers when downsampled to standard for them? Have 'The Makers' made any comment on this? Thanks strt [ February 06, 2003, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: mchlstrt ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schrullenhaft Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Which video card do you have ? A number of people complained about the 'downsampling', which might be limited to certain cards or drivers. Ironically this downsampling may be happening to the newest cards with the most memory on them. Some older ATI cards with 16 & 32Mb of VRAM on them may not be suffering the same symptoms. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow 1st Hussars Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 I have a G4 with a Radeon 7000 and at 1024 x 768 resolution and less the quality is severely degraded. Fortunately for me, I have a big monitor and run at 1152 x 870. [ January 11, 2003, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: Shadow 1st Hussars ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchlstrt Posted January 12, 2003 Author Share Posted January 12, 2003 Thanks for the info. I've got the aftermarket 32 meg 7000. I also have the original 16 meg card running a second monitor, I'll try switching the startup screen & see if it makes a diff. B&W G3 400, both ATI cards. Any answers to the other two questions? strt 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchlstrt Posted January 12, 2003 Author Share Posted January 12, 2003 2X strt [ January 12, 2003, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: mchlstrt ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 It appears that the primary victims of downsampling are the nVidia cards. Some of the Radeons are either not bothered by it or are bothered less. The bottom line is that in the nVidia stable, the lower-end cards with 32MB VRAM perform as well as the higher-end cards. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchlstrt Posted January 15, 2003 Author Share Posted January 15, 2003 (EDIT synopsis of below: Had made 800m x 800m flat Map, no terrain features, 5 Axis Tanks, no Allied Units. Had Scenario. Had saved Game. Recently opened Saved (old) Game, lores (downsampled). Opened Scenario, Standardres (not downsampled)! Saved (new) Game, Stdres. After testing, old Save is always lores, new Game is always Stdres, & (!)Scenario swiches back & forth randomly each time it's opened. Always a Bug when in Stdres that can force a restart, never when in lores. Recently installed lores Grass. Rest is details. Fact that SAME FILE behaves differently made me think this might be of interest to the BXX folks.) OK. I got back to my Desktop today & rather than getting right to what I should have been doing I started poking at CM. I HAVE SEEN STANDARD RES ON MY MAC! I had made a Scenario for Modding purposes. 800 x 800 m, flat Grass w/ DooDads, 1 instance each of 5 different Axis Light Tanks, no Allied Units, & an auto-generated Flag. Opened Saved Turn, lores. Wanted to see Finn T-26 next to Rom T-26 I had been working on to put my work back in (I had reverted to orig BTS) & figure out if I could save it, so opened orig Scen to move it in setup. They were already next to each other, & everything was Standard Res! Now, for some reason I hit the Hotkeys Button. It came up w/ text but no 'Box', it was transparent. When I clicked in the appropriate area (Box, but not on Text) it closed. I saved another Game & hit cmmnd-a to abort. The Abort Box came up, w/ 'Immediately quit this scenario?', but no Buttons, & no amount of clicking could find them. I had to restart. I had booted from my 'Music' Partition, so I switched to my 'CM' Partition. Opened again, same deal, noticed Grass DooDads had white horizontal lines in them. Took Screenie, Hotkeys same, abort same, Restart. TechTool ran it's auto-check routine on startup (after the Apple one) & when the box closed that area of my Desktop was distorted. Opened Screenie & when I closed it that area was also distorted. My Card was freaked out, not just CM. Over the next few rounds of restarts this straightened out. Also over the next few rounds of restarts I put the CD in the Drive (I had been using an alternate method) & installed 1 PhotoShop 5.5 .bmp of my work. I think these were both after the Glitch disappeared, but I'm not sure. It also seemed for the first few rounds that which of the three Files (Scenario, Orig Save, & New Save) would be Standard or Downsampled was random. Again, there was so much changing that I didn't know yet what to pay attention to. After several dozen restarts of Computer, CM, & Files this is what it seems to have settled into. The original save is always lores. The new Save is always standardres. The Scenario File switches betwwen the two, mostly standardres. Starting the Scenario over & over about two dozen times, then quitting CM, retarting & doing the same thing it comes up lores the first or second time, then every 4th to 6th time after that. It came up lores twice in a row once. If anything comes up standardres you can abort normally, but if you open the Hotkeys it's no Box, no Buttons (this is true of at least 'Surrender' also), & you're restarting. After this I booted from another Disc & ran both Partitions thru TechTool Pro 3.0.8 w/ no new problems reported. The Desktop distortion reappeared during the tests, but not after. I had installed CMBB 1.01 since I last payed attention to this, & a few Mods. The one that might matter is CW's lores Gridded Grass. Maybe this dropped the Graphics Load to some critical breakpoint. Tanks in Scen are L6/40, H-39, Finn T-26S, Rom R-35, & Rom T-26S (which is wrong Thumbnail, I just noticed). B&W G3 400, 704 meg, sys9.2.2, Radeon 7000 aftermarket on startup (CM) PanasyncS17 @ 1024x768 74.9hz thousands, ATI Rage128 on second old Apple 16 @ 832x624 75hz thousands. EDIT Also found 4 'junk files' in Saved Game folder, maybe from forced restarts. Have all Files & such if helpful, I didn't touch nuttin. mchlstrt@hotmail.com or azulie@earthlink.net [ January 16, 2003, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: mchlstrt ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ales Dvorak Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Originally posted by mchlstrt: I HAVE SEEN STANDARD RES ON MY MAC!Picture please. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 mchlstrt, I found your post hard to follow and very confusing, but it sounds like you may have something seriously wrong with your computer somewhere. Hopefully it is a software problem, but from here and your description, I frankly haven't a clue. I will continue to follow your saga with interest, but I am doubtful that I can offer anything of use. Good luck. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchlstrt Posted January 15, 2003 Author Share Posted January 15, 2003 I managed to get two screenies of the same unit in lo & standard. When I can get back here tonight for more than two minutes I'll try to figure out this PicPosty business. I don't know wether there's a prob w/ my 'pute, but I do know I've never noticed Standardres before, certainly not in this scenario which I stared at a lot before I got frustrated & quit working on the Mod. Certainly not the exact same File switching back & forth randomly. I also know I have looked at 'smaller' scens (1 JT in a smaller Field) that were DS'd. I'll try to fire that one up today & see what's up. Is there still a question in some people's mind that this 'Mac Downsampling' thing is going on? I'm getting a bit of the same feeling I got when I told people about playing touch football w/ that pack of Abominable Snowmen last year. strt 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Originally posted by mchlstrt: Is there still a question in some people's mind that this 'Mac Downsampling' thing is going on?I don't think so. It has been pretty definitely confirmed for nVidia cards. Radeons seem to be less effected or not at all. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchlstrt Posted January 16, 2003 Author Share Posted January 16, 2003 I guess that is pretty dense reading up there. I edited in a 'Readers Digest' version at the top to make the important points clearer (I hope). This just seems like such a unique situation that BXX would be interested in it, but they know better than I know what they know & don't know. Ya know? I'm trying to sort out the piccie thing. My provider (earthlink) has a 'Build your own little Website' thingie but it keeps crashing me out of IE somewhere in the startup process. If I sort it out I'll post the 'before & afters'. strt 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 I've got an old 300mhz mac G3 with the standard Rage driver (1.5?) and the game ALWAYS gets downres'd on my machine. Sometimes just a little, sometimes a LOT. Bear in mind (or is that 'bare' in mind?) even downsampled, CMBB looks better than CMBO ever did. Since I also do mods, it's a challenge to be able to see a sharp representation of my mod in the game for checking purposes. Only alternative, a much bigger video card, which cost 4 times more than the game itself. Ouch. [ January 16, 2003, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Originally posted by MikeyD: Bear in mind (or is that 'bare' in mind?) even downsampled, CMBB looks better than CMBO ever did.True. Only alternative, a much bigger video card, which cost 4 times more than the game itself. Ouch.Warning: THAT WON'T HELP. Save your money. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Hmmm... I just checked. my G4 mac at work does a much better job at displaying the game (demo) than my old G3 tower at home. But it seems both machines use the same Rage accelerator! Must be another factor - the monitor setup? Still, CMBB looks good enough for these tired old eyes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eden Smallwood Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Bear in mind that it's like the Right to Bear Arms, er... if you're not American sorry, but, ah, just bear with me. My little Mac is downsampled to poo, but with 800x600 I wasn't expecting much anyway. G3 with an ATI 128... I feel lucky just to be able to run this game. The only mod which really looks great for me is JuJu's Definitive HakenKreuze flag. Gawd it looks great. In fact it's a bit of a problem, as the other flags now look really wimpy. Eden 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 I always thought it was the right to bare arms (the reason for all the short sleeve shirts out there). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchlstrt Posted January 19, 2003 Author Share Posted January 19, 2003 I think all juju's stuff is Hires (as in above Standard CMBB res), so it IS sharper, that's what Standardres looks like to the entire Windows world. On my T-26 Mod I worked in Hires because it had been suggested as a 'Modding Trick'. It was so sharp I was doing a lot of 'blurring' to make it look right w/ the other vehicles I was using for reference. When I downsampled the .BMPs to Standard res it suddenly looked awful ingame. Maybe that's why the guys putting out the 'Hires' Mods seem to be Mac-types. As a matter of fact... A 32meg VidCard should be plenty for fairly large BB games. The Game &/or the Comp think it's not & downsample graphics, but this shouldn't 'fill up' the 32meg in reality, or something really weird is going on. What happens if you put in all Hires? Will it downsample twice as much above the mistaken ' filled up' point? If not it would then all be Standardres on screen. Of course you'd have to 'upsample' practically the whole .BMP folder to check this out. strt 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Måkjager Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 Hi all i have posted two pix below of the same vehicle for you to take a gander at. web page I have a Mac G4 Dual 800 which came with a nVidia GF3 with 64MB of VRAM , x4 AGP card with Apples ADC connector. I was disappointed to say the least with the quality of images that it displayed. Originally i wanted to get a OEM x4 AGP Radeon with my mac..but Apple pulled em due to their spat with ATI over announcements. Lucky enough i was able to get my hands on a OEM x4 AGP Radeon with 32MB of VRAM. Now...my OS is 9.2.2 in which i have seperate sets of the latest drivers for both cards...ie Apple's supplied v3.0 for the nVidia card and ATIs retail Radeon update ( October) These pix are taken with these drivers activated. A clear difference is obvious...the 32MB ATI knocks the crap out of the nVidia 64MB card when it comes to the quality of displaying 2d visuals...just look how that GFF3 card bleeds The strange thing is that the nVidia card is NOT downsampling.....but the ATI card IS. It seems that the culprit here is in fact the drivers Apple have supplied for the nVidia cards...they are not up to scratch for CM unfortunately. Hope this helps some best Måkjager 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchlstrt Posted January 19, 2003 Author Share Posted January 19, 2003 Makjager(how do you get that 'a'?), Your Nvidia looks about like my Radeon 7000. I'll have to check my drivers when I get back, 'cause your Radeon looks pretty good to me. I see that's your Work (nice Work, btw). Is it in Standard or are you working in a higher res? Also, if you make really small Scenarios to do Mod Work, have you noticed better res in those, as I describe above. I've also opened KngTgr, JgdTgr, Coy of Vlksturm on featureless 240m x 240m map & that came up Standardres. strt 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Måkjager Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 Mike.....the side bmps in both images are 512 x 256 pixels with a res of 144 pix per inch. The original bmp size that i am working on it 1024 x 512....which i supose you could term Super-Hi res. I reduced it in size without doing any sharpening etc and it looks like the ATI version in game now. I have just set up a 1500pt game on a Huge map/moderate trees/ small hills/ rural with a Plt of 5 Luchs , 5 Stugs , 5 LMGs and a Comp of Infantry..without what ever the Reds bought. Visual..very very slight dergadation...only noticable with a slight fuzz on the turret top bmp. Movement has become slightly choppy..but by and large the visuals are still what i want them to be. As for your card....i am stumped. Yours is a later version of mine ( yours x2 AGP ? ) Could it be something to do with it being x2 where as mine is x4? Just tried a very small map with one Luchs ..and it looks the way i intended it...no extra sharpening due to small size of map ( ie no downsampling) When i made my 1st Hetzer mod on my 333mhz iMac Rev D i had horrible graphics...somewhat similar to the nVidia card..only much worse..but then that was ATI 6MB. Very strange indeed. If you CAN get your hands on a Radeon 32MB OEM card..then mb things might be better...but its a shame that you have paid out already for a card that is not doing the work its supposed to be doing. Check out www.versiontracker.com and find the ATI drivers , and see if they do anything for you. regards Måkjager ps..to do the "å" on a Mac just press alt / option and a at the same time 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchlstrt Posted January 20, 2003 Author Share Posted January 20, 2003 Måkjager (got it!), Sorry for the confusion, mine is a retail Radeon 7000 PCI, I don't think my B&W G3 400 tower has an AGP slot. Might be the diff. I found the Drivers & will try them Tuesday when I get back. There's also a brand new Firmware update which I will be the Guinea Pig for. If my Card goes up in flames playing CM I'll let you know. They updated those drivers shortly after they put them out, btw. Thanks for the info. ps: how do you know your nVia isn't downsampling & your Radeon is? strt [ January 20, 2003, 01:17 AM: Message edited by: mchlstrt ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Guys, As was said above, we understand that there is some sort of nVidia problem that we have yet to identify. Also, when discussing downsampling with us it is only relevant to talk about a "factory install". Mods which did not balance quality and size issues can overwhelm even a 32MB card pretty easily. And also don't forget, the more variety of stuff (terrain, units, nations) and the bigger the maps, the greater chance of downsampling (at least selectively so). I run on a 400MHz G4 with stock card. I don't think I have ever seen downsampling. But my G3 iBook... almost always due to its puny VRAM. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchlstrt Posted January 20, 2003 Author Share Posted January 20, 2003 I'm talking about sub-tiny scenarios on a 32meg Card, but if Måkjager's getting that much better performance then it might be some Driver-type problem I can fix. Also, just so my conscience is clear, the Files from the flipflop-freezeout-forced restart situation above are not useful for you guys, correct? It just seemed like such an odd thing I thought it might be. Strt 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Originally posted by Battlefront.com: Guys, As was said above, we understand that there is some sort of nVidia problem that we have yet to identify. Also, when discussing downsampling with us it is only relevant to talk about a "factory install". Mods which did not balance quality and size issues can overwhelm even a 32MB card pretty easily. And also don't forget, the more variety of stuff (terrain, units, nations) and the bigger the maps, the greater chance of downsampling (at least selectively so). I run on a 400MHz G4 with stock card. I don't think I have ever seen downsampling. But my G3 iBook... almost always due to its puny VRAM. SteveThanks for the post and update. Its good to know you folks are aware of this issue and watching this thread and the Tech Support forum. -tom w 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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