Franko Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 Does anyone know this? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 As a sidenote, I'd like to know what was the difference between the Puppchen (apparently a hauled rocket launcher using a Panzershreck warhead?) and the late war PAW rocket system? I remember seeing but one field pic of the latter somewhere. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 in the upper lefz corner there is something which is popularly referred to as the SEARCH function. use of it would lead you, for example, to old threads like these: http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=024041#000019 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGONZOM Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 I just read the thread you posted and I am dissapointed with the search you posted. In the thread you sited in your search it does not answer the question. The number that reach the field and rarity? Thanks for the clue but if you post a thread make sure it answers the question, Franko has been a longtime member and I am sure he knows how to do a search.. [ February 15, 2003, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: Mr_Gonzo_The_Rooster ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 OK, here's my take (mind you I haven't done any research) I've read about WWII on and off for most of my life and played a lot of wargames and I'd never heard of the Pupchen until CMBO. This leads me to believe they were pretty rare. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franko Posted February 15, 2003 Author Share Posted February 15, 2003 Originally posted by M Hofbauer: [QB] in the upper lefz corner there is something which is popularly referred to as the SEARCH function. use of it would lead you, for example, to old threads like these: Your thread was worthless, but thanks for the snide sarcastic criticism...thats always helpful. I've been on the forum since the first game came out. I understand how it works, you tool. Frank 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackhorse Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 Originally posted by Franko: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by M Hofbauer: [QB] in the upper lefz corner there is something which is popularly referred to as the SEARCH function. use of it would lead you, for example, to old threads like these: Your thread was worthless, but thanks for the snide sarcastic criticism...thats always helpful. I've been on the forum since the first game came out. I understand how it works, you tool. Frank </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackhorse Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 Well hey, page 33 of German Secret Weapons: blueprint for Mars Brian Ford, Ballantyne Books, 1969 there's a photo with the caption "Test firing a recoiless anti-tank gun". It looks remarkably like the Puppchen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doodlebug Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 Originally posted by Blackhorse: Well hey, page 33 of German Secret Weapons: blueprint for Mars Brian Ford, Ballantyne Books, 1969 there's a photo with the caption "Test firing a recoiless anti-tank gun". It looks remarkably like the Puppchen. Yor're right. It is a Puppchen 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjhays Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 I have a actual picture of one from a musuem in Normandy, France. Not much to the little thing. Will post it here as soon as I find my disk with the pic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSpkr Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 Originally posted by Franko: I understand how it works, you tool. Frank Franko, it really isn't healthy to keep all those feelings bottled up inside. How do you REALLY feel? Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Kruger Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 It's really unfortunate how people who frequent this forum more than others take the time to respond to a thread only to do the whole "use the search" crap. If you are going to bother to respond at all, why not respond constructively or juts move onto another thread. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snorri Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 maybe i can give you a little help to your searches...use the term: PÜPPCHEN !, JA,! not pupchen or pput-pput-hen... (nevermind this) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 Originally posted by Herr Kruger: It's really unfortunate how people who frequent this forum more than others take the time to respond to a thread only to do the whole "use the search" crap. If you are going to bother to respond at all, why not respond constructively or juts move onto another thread. Use the search! http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=006442#000009 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franko Posted February 16, 2003 Author Share Posted February 16, 2003 Originally posted by MrSpkr: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Franko: I understand how it works, you tool. Frank Franko, it really isn't healthy to keep all those feelings bottled up inside. How do you REALLY feel? Steve </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSulo Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 I have nothing to contribute, I just love the name, Püppchen... Sounds like a mix of puppy and mädchen (little girl). How cute is that? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 Originally posted by Bone_Vulture: As a sidenote, I'd like to know what was the difference between the Puppchen (apparently a hauled rocket launcher using a Panzershreck warhead?) and the late war PAW rocket system? I remember seeing but one field pic of the latter somewhere. The PAW ... or 8cm Panzerabwehrwerfer 600 (also known as the PAW 8H63) according to "Encyclopedia of Infantry Weapons of WW2" by Ian Hogg "As it happened, Rheinmettal-Borsig had been developing an idea of their own for some time, and this looked like the opportunity to try it out. Called the 'High and Low Pressure System', the idea was to confine the explosion of the charge in a strong chamber but allow the gas to leak at low pressure into a lightweight barrel to propel the projectile. The system gave the advatanges of ballistic regularity and efficiency which came from exploding the charge in a confined space to develop high pressure, but the gun barrel could be light in weight since it had to resist low pressure. In order not to complicate matters the barrel was smoothbored and the projectile fin stabilized; in fact, it was a somewhat modified 81mm mortar bomb. The cartridge cas was a normal 105mm field howitzer case with a heavy steel plate in the mouth, pierced with a number of venturi nozzles and with a central spigot holding the projectile. On firing, the propellant burned in the case at about seven tons per square inch, and the gas bled through the venturi holes to fill the space behind the projectile. When the pressure in the barrel reached 3 1/2 tons per square inch, the spigot broke and allowed the bomb to be projected from the barrel." from the same reference as above, "8.8cm Racketenwerfer 43 (Puppchen)" "In effect, it is the 8.8cm Panzershrek Rocket Launcher mounted on the carriage of the 2.8 cm schweres Panzerbuchse 41 taper bore gun, with the rear end of the launcher closed by a breech mechanism of simple sliding block pattern. This did away with the back blast which was always an objectionable feature of the open tube launchers and, by confining the rocket blast within a closed tube, improved velocity and hence the range. (snip) The exact number of RW43 which saw use is in some doubt; some reports speak of 'several', others refer to it as a prototype. Obviously it did not meet the needs of the army in one respect in that it still used a rocket and the demand was for a weapon using less propellant than a rocket solution. But it seems likely that upwards of a hundred were actually in the hands of troops when the war ended, and what few accounts there are seem to indicate that the design was successful" So, to sum up, the PAW is a gun and the Puppchen is a rocket launcher. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franko Posted February 16, 2003 Author Share Posted February 16, 2003 But does anyone know how COMMON they were? Were they given to infantry divisions? Panzerjager units? Elite units? Everyday units? How many were made? Were they part of the battalion anti-tank unit, or regimental anti-tank unit? where these weapons given in lieu of others, e.g., anti-tank guns? How many in a crew? were the crews separately trained and organized? Or were the poop-chins given out like Panzerfausts, i.e., whenever they got a shipment they were distributed to whomever? Thats what I mean. And, by the way, the Search function does NOT answer this "commonness" question. Frank 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefly Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 Well every box of Airfix German Infantry (48 pieces) came with two, so Airfix obviously thought hey were common . IRL, I'm not sure, but I don't recall them being mentioned in books on the period too frequently. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 Originally posted by Franko: But does anyone know how COMMON they were? Were they given to infantry divisions? Panzerjager units? Elite units? Everyday units? How many were made? Were they part of the battalion anti-tank unit, or regimental anti-tank unit? where these weapons given in lieu of others, e.g., anti-tank guns? How many in a crew? were the crews separately trained and organized? Or were the poop-chins given out like Panzerfausts, i.e., whenever they got a shipment they were distributed to whomever? Thats what I mean. And, by the way, the Search function does NOT answer this "commonness" question. Frank Sure it does. the search comes up with "When the production was stopped in February 1944 there was 4302 available." and "The Puppchen was manufactured by Westfallische-Anhaltische Sprengstoff AG at Reinsdorf. The few that were produced before production was abandoned and switched to the Schreck were sent to Tunisia and Italy. Some actually ended up as beach defense weapons in the Atlantic Wall. Panzerschreck production was so important that by 1944 it was being produced at seven factories and sub-assemblies at many other minor factories. Cost was an astonishingly low RM70 and 289,151 of the first two models were produced in 1943 and 1944. 25,744 of the final model (the 54/1) were built and over 2,000,000 rockets had been manufactured. Other bits of Schreck trivia. There was ammunition for winter and summer. The front sights had marks for +20C and -25C. The rear sight had an aiming off plate. The Panzerschreck had a safety." The question of COMMONness seems pretty well delt with. The new level of detail that you require is another question that is more indepth than how "Common" they are. Use the search, it loves you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rleete Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 search grog. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 Pseudo search grog, thank you very much. The last actual Grogs left this board during 1999/2000 exoduses, all we have now of that golden age is Rexford. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doodlebug Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 Originally posted by Firefly: Well every box of Airfix German Infantry (48 pieces) came with two, so Airfix obviously thought hey were common . IRL, I'm not sure, but I don't recall them being mentioned in books on the period too frequently. They weren't Puppchen. Weren't they the 28mm taper bore thingamajiggies? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefly Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 Could have been, I think on the back of the box they were just described as anti-tank guns, but it's been over 30 years since I looked at the back of the box. They featured in the Afrika Corps set too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 Great info. Thanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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