How common were these "Pupchen" things?

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Firefly:

Could have been, I think on the back of the box they were just described as anti-tank guns, but it's been over 30 years since I looked at the back of the box. They featured in the Afrika Corps set too.

In order that no dire consequences should eventuate from a minor misperception as to the precise contents of long-defunct boxes of Airfix soldiers, Herr Doktor Ganz-Picki bids me inform you that the things were indeed badly-done attempts at the sPZB41, apparently on the tubular lightweight airborne carriage, and that there were two in the Afrika Korps box but only one in the German Infantry box.

The German Infantry box also included two chaps holding Panzerfausts across their bodies in an improbable pose, the quality of moulding again being quite poor and suggesting a drill parade performed by the owners of a coconut-shy.

All the best,

John.

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Snorri:

maybe i can give you a little help to your searches...use the term: PÜPPCHEN !, JA,!

not pupchen or pput-pput-hen...

(nevermind this)

1. It is Puppchen, not Püppchen.

2. It was not as rare as many people again and again claim it to be.

3. The thread I linked was just an EXAMPLE - I specifically stated so. Why do you expect me to do all your work just because you're too plain lazy?

But in today's world of people expecting convenience products being fed to them ,here goes (this is a repeat of old posts of mine):

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quote 1:

"The correct name for the Puppchen ("little doll") is "8,8cm Raketenwerfer 43 "Puppchen". The germans built 2,862 in 1943 and 288 in 1944. A second production run of 3,000 was canceled and the partly finished weapons scrapped. Interesting sidenote to the production numbers: the troops received their first 700 weapons in October 1943; however there were problems with the production of the ammunition, the RPzGr. 4312, and consequenlty an ammunition shortage. The first major batch of that ammunition were 19,000 delivered in March 1944. At the time of the german surrender May 1945, a total of 1,649 Puppchen were still in active service with frontline troops.

The germans had stopped producing the weapon because they concluded that essentially it had the same performance as the Panzerschreck but was much more cumbersome and required more resources to produce in comparison to the "Panzerschreck" RPzB. 54/1.

In CM with it's abstracted infantry model the advantages of a Panzerschreck over the Puppchen don't really become as apparent, but common sonse should make it apparent that a 10kg Panzerschreck launch tube carried around by a sneaky soldier is much more feasible than the unwieldy, cumbersome Puppchen with it's gunpiece-assembly and a total weight of 100kg."

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quote #2:

MarkIV,

hello again

"Shortages of war materials and conflicts for production capacity would also weigh heavily in favor of the Panzerschreck over the Püppchen."

agree, but I need to point out that whatever sources you are using are overgermanizing the subject. The correct german name does not use the Umlaut. the word Püppchen means little doll, too, and actually today would much rather be used, but the fact remains that the WW2 weapon we are talking about here was called "Puppchen". I can only suspect that the (american?) sopurces you are using were trying to be smarter / more german than the Heereswaffenamt itself by "correcting" the apparently "missing" Umlaut dots.

"John Weeks, sometimes collaborator with Hogg, also says in "Men Against Tanks" that Püppchen was a development of the Panzerschreck (he may be using Hogg as his source, though)."

I'm sorry to say that I disagree and that as far as I can see IMHO Mr Weeks is wrong. The Puppchen was an independent construction, however of course it shared many design features with the Panzerschreck since they were comparable weapons, so they were alike just like a Toyota Celica and a Volkswagen Golf are similar in so far as they are cars.

"A few were used in France in 1944 where they were not particularly good and it is coubtful if they ever enjoyed the confidence of the German soldier."

agree, that concurs with what I have read so far on that weapon. It didn't really earn the confidence of the german troops using it due to the reasons already outlined. In essence, it was like an AT gun but lacking the performance of an AT gun.

He also mentions attempts to increase the Panzerschreck's dimensions to 100mm (a failure due to weight and dimension increase),

the correct dimensions re. caliber for the projected Panzerschreck 10,5cm were - true to the name - 105mm. It was a bit heavier with it's 13kg but apparently one of the main reasons why it was dropped from further development was due to heavy recoil forces (technically being a recoilless weapon, I am are referring to the kickback of the rocket engine against the protective shield).

"and an improved version of the Püppchen called PWK 8 H 63"

It amazes me that these two weapons should be related to each other. The PWK 8 H 63 was a totally different weapon design by Rheinmetall, employing the high-low-pressure principle. It used the Wgr.Patr. 4462 ammunition. It was a descendant of the PAW 600, and I am really amazed how it should be related to the Puppchen...? I mean it practically succeeded the Puppchen as the next lightweight, new technology cheap AT piece, but that is how far the relationship goes IMHO.

"which showed great promise (good at 600-700m)"

Accuracy under firing range test conditions was such that at a range of 750m, 50% of all shots hit within a square of 70cm side length. For comparison, under same conditions the 50% hit group square of the PaK 43 AT gun was 20cm.

"but which probably never "knocked out so much as one tank" due to its late introduction."

In March 1945 the Panzergrenadier-Regimenter Pz.Gren.Regt.30 and 31 employed a total of 105 Panzerwurfkanonen 8 H 63. I couldn't dig up anything but the fact that these 105 were really in frontline use.

yours sincerely,

M.Hofbauer

(edited to kill the stupid smiley-insertion by the board script)

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Are you a happymeal customer now? I hope you can go use the bathroom yourself - I definitely won't be coming when you're shouting "I'm done!"

(LOL, edited again because the board script got me again inserting smileys that I didn't wont - some people never learn)

[ February 17, 2003, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: M Hofbauer ]

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Franko:

I've been on the forum since the first game came out. I understand how it works, you tool.

Frank

Whew, guess what, I have been here since that, too. I've even been here before the first game came out, years ago when there was still the old white board format. And my member number is lower than yours. And I can pee further than you. And you are a bigger tool