Firebase not engaging targets that are revealed..(pic in)

[Scooby2003]

First of all, thanks to Ligur for the excellent post on scouting! (very helpful) and to the others that have been trying to help me with the "Into the Void" scenario from the Stalingrad Pack.

I'm having a very annoying problem with advancing my units in the "Void" scenario.

I'm including a pic so if you don't want to see the scenario at all before playing it, you may not want to scroll down....(the pick is of the very beginning of the scenario, so it really doesn't give much away)

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

Here is my problem.....

I have all of the units you see in the trees, in hull down position with full LOS to the treeline. I also have a Platoon HQ with equally good LOS. In the above pic, I am attempting to move the PZII ahead to reveal enemy positions in the hope that my "firebase" will immediately engage them as they appear and suppress if not destroy them.

Here is what happens next....

A Gun? begins targeting my tank and is firing off rounds like a banshee! I wait, anticipating the thuder-clap of my firebase opening up on this unsuspecting gun. But althought they appear to have great LOS they do nothing.

Now, I imagine that either my tanks and HT's are too far away, or maybe the fact that it is identified as a "gun?" suggests that its location isn't really known. Or most likely, just because the advancing tank can see them, the others cant. If this is the case, how can I make my firebase more effective? I'm really not sure and am banging my head against the wall over this scenario! (what you can't see is that the EXACT same thing is happening to the right of the screen when I am assaulting the farm...my support just sits there and does nothing as my advancing troops are engaged by field guns.)

Thanks for any help! I'm sure that I'm simply overlooking something obvious.

[ June 24, 2003, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: Scooby2003 ]

[Sir Uber General]

I'd say the fb is too far away. Thats a big gap you need to cross there, do you have smoke?

[Sarge Saunders]

I'd say try cover arcs with your overwatch units. They may tend to open fire earlier I've found....especially at longer ranges.

[kenfedoroff]

You may find that even with cover arcs, some units won't fire. You will have to go through a whole minute of watching your scout vehicle being used for target practice before you can command the over-watch to target the specific gun in the orders phase.

Ken

[YankeeDog]

I have encountered this same thing before as well. I'm not exactly sure of the reason, but I have my guesses. It tends to happen more often if the unit you want to fire on the newly spotted enemy (in your case, your "firebase") is at longer range and/or has only marginal spotting of the target. Both apply in your case - the target is at 718m, and also the spotting line is dark blue, indicating that while your tank can see the enemy gun, it can't see it very well.

OK, now two guesses as to what's going on:

1. The TacAI will sometimes hold fire against targets that are tehnically in range, but are far enough away that the fire is unlikely to cause much damage. This is an intended feature of the game. However this TacAI behavior sometimes keeps a firebase from opening fire when you want it to open up with whatever it has no matter how little damage it might cause. I don't think this is what's happening in your case, though - while your tanks' MGs won't have much of an effect at the 718m range in your situation, the HE from their main guns still should. It is possible, though, that the PzII, with it's very small HE shell, is skeptical about it's ability to hit close enough to the gun to actually cause any damage or suppression. This TacAI routine might also be affected by the PzII's rather small ammo load - it doesn't want to waste what little it has in case it really needs it later.

2. Even when ammo or range is not a factor, I still see this 'hold fire' behavior sometimes, ESPECIALLY when (1) the LOS is marginal, or (2) the unit in question is a buttoned AFV. My WAG here is that Charles has managed to a little fudge factor into the code to compensate for the 'borg spotting' problem in CMBB a little bit.

Basically, 'borg spotting' means that once one unit spots and enemy unit, ALL other units also know where that enemy unit is instantly - this is, of course unrealistic. IRL, it would take some minutes, for the information about the exact location of the enemy unit to make it around to all units (unless they spotted it themselves in the interim, of course). BFC *might* have deliberately put something in the game code that makes units that have marginal LOS to a new enemy take extra time to actually target them in order to partially compensate for 'borg spotting'. I don't know for sure, but it wouldn't surprise me if this was the case.

In any event, there are two things you can do to deal with this issue:

1. Give your overwatch maximum range, 180 degree covered arcs. Units are MORE likely to open up on enemy within their covered arc than they are if they don't have a covered arc at all. This helps override (but does not completely prevent) the 'range to far' and 'ammo conservation' TACAI behaviors. Think of this as giving specific orders to your firebase to open up on anything they see, rather than just sticking them in a good overwatch and letting them decide what's worth using ammo on.

2. If your firebase still doesn't open up, simply manually issue a target order the next turn. It may be a bit frustrating to have to do this sometimes, but it certainly is realistic. The one danger of manually issuing a targeting order is that a new, more important enemy target will pop up the next turn (The TacAI generally only overrides player targeting orders in cases of self-preservation). This is a risk you have to take if you want your suppressive fire coming on line ASAP. *Usually*, the unit will pick up the enemy at some point in the next turn and start firing, but not always.

Happy Hunting,

YD

[Redwolf]

I also think there is often a mechanism at work which is supposed to lighten absolute spotting, that a tank loses sight to a target. That is most noticable when a tank buttons up and suddenly cannot find the same target it was seeing from outside anymore, while neither of them moved.

Whatever that is, it is not making things better

[Moon]

Do what they'd do in real life - open up with your firebase before the "scout" moves out. I.e. give area targets to your firebase on likely enemy positions. Most of the time, when a real target pops up during the action phase, some/many units with area targets and within LOS and effective range will switch to the real target and suppress it.

Martin

[Ligur]

I would not, if playing that scenario blind AND not knowing where/how exactly the enemy will surface start raking the damn long treeline with area fire.

Is this an error on my behalf?

I am of the opinion that in this scenario its damn near impossible not to have your scouting vehicles get shot at and to lose a few (or a dozen), there is not enough time and HE & HMG ammo to cover every place you might have to send a scout at. I would not go to extreme lengths to make sure none of the recon detachment die.

There are plenty of short AAR's on this scenario but I've been steaming for a week to make one with a serious load of pictures so we can dissect it something fierce. To do that I would also have to "forget" the first time I played it, or rather try to play like I did the first time out making stupid decisions intentionally.

This scenario is a virtual combined arms school for newbies and veterans a like.

I'm also looking for a similar combined arms scenario with a nice layout to make a nut busting disaster area AAR out of, meaning I'll "roleplay" it blind and possibly get totally creamed (as in disregard anything you might figure out because its a game, like that when you advance through this and this area you are likely to get fired etc, and also stepping into the shoes of a somewhat deluded, green and politically active Allied or Axis commander).

[Mouse]

Hrmmm... using that poor MkII as bait without covering fire?

I think I'd try to suppress the nearest (left) section of the treeline. Smoke the center to hopefully reduce flanking fire. Then get some troops out to that ravine to provide closer supporting fire and overwatch for the next crew which would hopefully make the treeline.

Trying to tease the defense, you still aren't taking the initiative, and 700-800 meters is a long way. Your firebase units are going to weigh threat to themselves, range to target, likelihood of kill, and ammo situation. Remember, for the TacAI, if it doesn't think it can kill, it won't shoot. Suppressive fire or interdiction fire is a manual process.

My own $0.02.

[Mr. Tittles]

Originally posted by Moon:

Do what they'd do in real life - open up with your firebase before the "scout" moves out. I.e. give area targets to your firebase on likely enemy positions. Most of the time, when a real target pops up during the action phase, some/many units with area targets and within LOS and effective range will switch to the real target and suppress it.

Martin

Perhaps the game should have had the area fire command be active for less than the full minute turn. The player could then designate, lets say, 10 second area fire commands. Perhaps even at different areas. So for a MG covering an infantry rush for example, have it squirt a suspected house once or twice for 20 seconds and then return to an overwatch state. Raking a treeline could be just that, multiple designated areas along the treeline.

[atiff]

The covering vehicle highlighted is a Pz II by the looks of it. If the other vehicles in the covering group are also only armed with 20 or 37mm weapons, they are probably "out of effective range" and so the TacAI won't engage them (as they won't do much good). That's my guess.....

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by atiff:

The covering vehicle highlighted is a Pz II by the looks of it. If the other vehicles in the covering group are also only armed with 20 or 37mm weapons, they are probably "out of effective range" and so the TacAI won't engage them (as they won't do much good). That's my guess.....

There is no such thing as an effective range for HE. The effect is relative to the impact point of the shell.

There is a max range, though, but not in CM.

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by redwolf:

There is no such thing as an effective range for HE. The effect is relative to the impact point of the shell.

There is a max range, though, but not in CM.

Yes, but I believe (I've never actually tested this, so I may be wrong), that CM correctly makes the error deviation of direct HE fire bigger as range increases. At least, I've always played with this assumption.

If I'm right, then especially small calibre HE is more effective at closer range where has a greater chance of scoring a direct or near-direct hit.

And at least some on-board guns and *do* have a maximum range - German 75mm IG, for example, has a maximum range of 3200m, IIRC. It's just that these ranges are generally so long that they don't come into play in your typical CM scenario. At least, they never have for me.

I've never seen a max. range listed for a AFV gun, though. Again, only in a very few special cases (low velocity gun on a VERY big, open map) would such a thing be likely to come into play in CM.

Cheers,

YD

[Schoerner]

possible SPOILER ALERT

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

I don't understand the complaints:

the current engine makes it even more simple than it was in reality: there are no trigger levels for AT-guns.

In the current engine it is possible to trigger all AT-guns with cheap vehicles.

In reality there could have been always a 76mm AT gun waiting for it's chance... (hopefully CMX2 will offer AT-trigger-levels for scenario designers).

In reality such situations slow down the advance. Advancing over open terrain and you don't know what's in the woods on the other end?

That is dangerous and has to be quite difficult in the game, too.

It's not enough to bring a tank forward, see how it becomes knocked out and expect the overwatching tanks will do the rest.

And it means there's no need to clean the area within 30 minutes.

If you want to win every scenario with a total victory, then here's the right place for some rushing gamey tactics.

If you prefer taking care of your men and equipment, you'll need time - too much time for a total victory in this scenario.

This tactics worked for me:

after losing a PzII and a 251/1 i decided it were more healthy to clean the woods first, before advancing with the other paper thin armoured vehicles.

In reality you would search for a route.

Here only the direct approach is possible and IMO the best way is to keep at least one flank safe -> a path on the left border of the map.

So a direct route to the woods on the left with a squad in a 251/1 at full speed while all the avail. MGs and HMGs give suppressive fire to all the areas where i estimated AT positions. Once the squad was there the rest was easy (thanks to borg spotting ): the advancing squad identified the xxx and the overwatching tanks did the rest within seconds.

I think it depends on how well the enemy position is identified, before the AI decides to shoot at it. It doesn't shot on every rabbit which is good IMO.

[ June 25, 2003, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: Schoerner ]

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by redwolf:

There is no such thing as an effective range for HE. The effect is relative to the impact point of the shell.

There is a max range, though, but not in CM.

Yes, but I believe (I've never actually tested this, so I may be wrong), that CM correctly makes the error deviation of direct HE fire bigger as range increases.

</font>

[Wolfe]

Any vehicle MGs should have opened up on the spotted gun. Infantry MG teams won't because of range (game thinks FP level is too ineffective even though massed MG fire can actually be very useful). Vehicles firing their MG will not necessarily target the gun with a red line; they'll simply fire the MG. AA vehicles (251/17, 234/1), however, will open up with their main 20mm guns. *Shrug*. Go figure.

The small caliber HE chuckers won't open up because the small HE blast is considered to be ineffective; a waste of ammo. This "feature" was added in a patch, IIRC.

For infantry MGs, use cover arcs to get them to open up at distance. Cover arcs don't seem to me to be useful at getting vehicles to fire, except to point the gun in the right direction.

Once some of your vehicles start dying, however, even the previously silent 20mm guns may open up since something is better than nothing.

- Chris

[GreenAsJade]

If there's any chance of making your firebase open fire, covered arcs will improve it.

I tried it, as described here .

GaJ.