HQ Survivability?

[Andrew Kulin]

I recall seeing discussions ayear ago or so about HQs being hard to kill. I wish I had that version of the software loaded on my PC.

It seems thatwhen I play PBEM or AI my HQ units are inevitably targeted first (CMBB/CMAK). In particular HQ Tanks, and even more so when they are Veteran/Crack plus and loaded with HQ modifiers (so it seems to me that the TAC AI can smell these guys out).

Example - I am in a CMBB PBEM game where I have 20 or so AFVs moving across the Russian steppes (under some cover with gullies). Of the 20 odd AFVs out in the "open", two have been lost so far, both HQ vehicles, one Crack, one Veteran.

It seems no matter where I place my HQ tanks in a formation (front, rear, middle) they get to be the first ones smacked, and as I said before, particularly if they are higher quality (experienced). It is getting to the point where I'd rather just hide my HQ vehicles at the rear and press the attack with fewer tanks, but with the benefit of being under HQ command (not effective w/o radios though).

The same can be said for infantry HQs though in that case I have not noticed any trend in the better ones being hit preferentially.

Anyone have any similar experiences or thoughts about this?

[tar]

I believe that BFC has mentioned that HQ tanks can be identified under some circumstances. In fact, you can do it yourself. The indicator is rather subtle, though. It involves a different portrait of the tank commander.

The rationale behind this is that the HQ tanks typically had more communications gear and radio antennae which would be visible to careful observation. For radio-less (Russian) tanks, there would be the use of flag signals from the command tanks that I would expect to be even more obvious than extra radio aerials.

The bottom line is that HQ tanks can, in fact, be identified with enough observation. Infantry HQ units are a bit harder to ID, but if you find things that are not identified as "Infantry Squad?", then it may be a headquarters. I don't find them to be targetted more than I might otherwise expect, unless they end up leading the charge and being the closest unit. But I guess it's not unexpected in that situation.

[tar]

An addendum: Sometimes HQ units are more reluctant to "go to ground" than regular infantry. This makes them more potent as tank assaulters, but it also means they stay up longer during assaults and thus tend to attract more fire. An up infantry unit is a better target than one that is taking cover or pinned.

[JasonC]

High quality HQs with good command ratings can unintentionally draw fire simply by moving out rapidly when given a new movement order. Try padding the order with one pause, to let their men get up before they do. First movers draw fire. I hope this helps.

[Joachim]

THe target routine for the TacAI is to aim for the most expensive target. Vehicle HQs are more expensive - so they are picked first. Dunno if this was fixed, but I remember that in some version you could screw the TacAI by dancing around with the HQ a mile away while closing in with the rest. During the turn the TacAI would target the expensive vehicle. Between turns the target priority was more complex. IIRC this feature is gone now.

I am a bit superstitious. So I do the following;

a) HQs to the rear of the plt and in positions where their hit prob is lower than the others. If the HQ is targetted, it is harder to hit. Trade off betwene the sure kill of a plt member or a likely kill of the HQ.

If the plt moves out of cover, HQs show up last - the TacAIs first target may be sticky.

c) If I have some other expensive stuff, use it with or ahead of the HQs. (Note that single vehicles are as expensive as HQs).

A favourite tactic was to have a regular PzIV plt a few hundred meters behind a vet PzIII plt. The T34 and PzIIIs happily fire at each other without doing some real harm. The PzIVs did the killing. Works great with Marders, too.

If the map prohibited this tactic, I tried to move up the PzIIIs early during the turn with the PzIVs showing up a bit later. Guess who received the incoming.

[Andrew Kulin]

I am finding that my tank HQs are getting flamed no matter where they are positioned in a formation. And I have tried the pause command as well to get others moving out in front.

It just seems like my HQ are equipped with super electro-magnets, capable of altering the trajectory of shells fired at other vehicles directly at them.

But as it seems that no one else is experiencing this I'll leave it.

Thanks.

[throwdjohn]

speaking of, if i am shooting at a tank among others on a ridgeline, is it possible for me to miss the tank im aiming at and hit another one instead? of course irl this would be possible but in cm?

[Kingfish]

Been playing this game 4+ years now, and to date I've yet to see a round miss a target and hit someone else. I've seen plenty of rounds miss and hit something else, but never another unit.

I've also never seen a ricochet hit anything after bouncing off the intended target. They always just fly off into space.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

Been playing this game 4+ years now, and to date I've yet to see a round miss a target and hit someone else. I've seen plenty of rounds miss and hit something else, but never another unit.

I've also never seen a ricochet hit anything after bouncing off the intended target. They always just fly off into space.

Then do I have a story for you. You remember Paul (aka Makjager)? He had a t34/85 fire at a Panther, hitting his upper hull, richetting off and returning to the t34/85 . . KNOCKING HIMSELF OUT!

Now, when Paul approached me at CMHQ with this story I thought to myself, ahem, yeah feckin right this *really* happened. So i asked him to send me the turn, which he did. And sure enough I saw with my own 2 eyes, this in fact did happen (was a game vs Jwxspoon, I believe)! Next time I catch him over at CMHQ, I'll see if he can post the pbem turn on this thread.

[Kingfish]

LOL!!!

A story about a T34 that knocks itself out...from Makjager...oh wait, Jwxspoon is involved in this as well...LOL!!!!!!!

That was a good one, Jesse. Got anymore?

[GS_Guderian]

Originally posted by tar:

..For radio-less (Russian) tanks, there would be the use of flag signals from the command tanks that I would expect to be even more obvious than extra radio aerials...

Not very helpful, since all other tanks will answer with the same signal, or pass it along to the other tanks. Thus they all look alike.

[securityguard]

Originally posted by Walpurgis Nacht:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kingfish:

Been playing this game 4+ years now, and to date I've yet to see a round miss a target and hit someone else. I've seen plenty of rounds miss and hit something else, but never another unit.

I've also never seen a ricochet hit anything after bouncing off the intended target. They always just fly off into space.

Then do I have a story for you. You remember Paul (aka Makjager)? He had a t34/85 fire at a Panther, hitting his upper hull, richetting off and returning to the t34/85 . . KNOCKING HIMSELF OUT!

Now, when Paul approached me at CMHQ with this story I thought to myself, ahem, yeah feckin right this *really* happened. So i asked him to send me the turn, which he did. And sure enough I saw with my own 2 eyes, this in fact did happen (was a game vs Jwxspoon, I believe)! Next time I catch him over at CMHQ, I'll see if he can post the pbem turn on this thread. </font>

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by securityguard:

I'll believe it when I see it. I've always thought once the round hits, it doesn't register with anything else in the game world. I stand by that idea too.

Spoken like a true Agnostic! I emailed Paul to see if he saved the turn. Even though it's over a year ago when this happened, I wouldn't be surprised if he still has it.

[CMplayer]

I tested ricochets (it's an easy test to set up) and AP ricochets can indeed knock other stuff out.

[Måkjager]

Lucky enough i am a hoarder of stuff and i have found the file Jesse was speaking of. He has it now and will host it when he gets time. As it was a long time ago the story was just slightly off Jesse, I just having now watched the turn again.

Situatation involved several T-34/85s taking on a Panther in a small village at close range. The nearest vehicle was a HQ T-34 that was 51m away. It fired a shot and got a penetrating round on the Panther , a second later a T-34/85 that was 91m away fired , its round ricocheted off the Panthers front hull and ko the HQ T-34 with a frontal hit.. even though the firing unit was 40m+ behind the HQ T-34/85. Wackiest turn i ever did see!

Regards

Måkjager

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

LOL!!!

A story about a T34 that knocks itself out...from Makjager...oh wait, Jwxspoon is involved in this as well...LOL!!!!!!!

That was a good one, Jesse. Got anymore?

Although not a richochet story, I think this one is ok:

In a game I had 3 M10s standing overwatch covering a suspected approach. Sure enough, a Tiger came rolling, easy pickings. My M10s opend up, got some part pens, the Tiger answered, hitting my middle M10. It promptly exploded, KOing the two other M10s on either side... 1 AP round, 3 dead M10s. I cried.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by Panzer76:

I cried.

I wasn't aware Norwegians were capable of such profound emotion.

Anyway I'm at work right now. When I get home I'll post Paul's wacky wacky turn here.

[walpurgis nacht]

Alright, now my computer rookiness exposes it's full measure. I have this turn now on my desktop, and want to post it so anyone can download it. I know how to post screenshots through imageshack, but this one is over my head. :confused:

Is there anyone that can post it if I email it to them? This turn is a must see! :eek:

[securityguard]

walpurgis can you e-mail me it at that_horseguy915@yahoo.com ? i'll host it

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by securityguard:

walpurgis can you e-mail me it at that_horseguy915@yahoo.com ? i'll host it

email on the way. thank you sir.

[securityguard]

I think that e-mail not might work anymore so just in case e-mail to junk@the111.com instead

[securityguard]

Wow, I guess I'm a believer. Truely an amazing turn, I had no idea combat mission could even simulate such at thing.

Here is the turn, the password is "303":

http://www.the111.com/rockmacrowIII071.txt

[ April 18, 2005, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: securityguard ]

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by securityguard:

Wow, I guess I'm a believer. Truely an amazing turn, I had no idea combat mission could even simulate such at thing.

Here is the to the turn: http://www.the111.com/rockmacrowIII071.txt

password is "303"

From Paul, "Action is as follows. A small village in which i have several T-34/85

rush into the path of a Panther. I get one T-34 to within 51m. The action happens at 59-60 seconds. The 51m distant T-34 gets in a

penetration at the panthers weak spot and then a T-34 that is 91m away fires.. gets a lower hull deflection which ricochets back and ko's the

T-34 that is 51m away from the Panther."

[ April 18, 2005, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: Walpurgis Nacht ]

[Måkjager]

See.. that what happens when u follow Mom's advice and eat up all yer carrots.. good for the eyes You do get trained to look out for such happenings when testing stuff.

Glad i was able to find it so quickly for you Jesse.

Regards

Måkjager

[throwdjohn]

this is kinda off topic but her goes. i am not the best armor tactician, but then again, neither is the AI. so how come no matter what kind of sneaky moves i pull, the AI is ALWAYS more accurate. i know tests have been done on this and it was discovered untrue, but how many times i have seen my crack tanks being outshot by regular/green. why can crack tanks not KO with 2 or 3 shots? and why can reg tanks do so at will?