Der Alte Fritz Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 Hi Does anyone have an account of the action 11-13th August between King Tigers and 53rd and 52nd Russian Tank Bde and 71st Seperate Guards Heavy Tank Regt? cheers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 Here is the classic account - http://www.achtungpanzer.com/articles/tigertam.htm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigduke6 Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 And here is the English version of the Russian Battlefield account - http://www.battlefield.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=167&Itemid=85 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigduke6 Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 And here is the text of the combat report of the commander of the IS-II regiment that helped shoot up the Tigers: http://www.battlefield.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=180&Itemid=88〈=en 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Alte Fritz Posted August 13, 2007 Author Share Posted August 13, 2007 Thanks for this great information. Has anyone done a scenario of this action? What were the essentials of this action that allowed the Russian tanks to be so effective? 1)The King Tigers being limited to the road. 2)The Germans attacking and hence moving into fire from concealed tanks. 3)Lack of supporting troops? cheers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergeltungswaffe Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 Mainly #2. Being able to fire at optimal range, from concealment on the enemy's flank, makes even the KT quite vulnerable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 Tactically stupid use of the Tigers, with limited support by other arms. That was the nub of it. The Russian armor units involved were also quite experienced and able to punish any errors, and well armed with numerous long 122mm guns. This largely negated the armor edge the Tigers represented. The German side was apparently completely unready for this, and the tactical stupidity with which they were used probably reflects an arrogant overconfidence in the strength of their armor. The right way to use 11 to 20 King Tigers against a large Russian armor force, is to stand off and use all the cover available, and hunt by platoons from that cover. While the supporting Panzer IVs and StuGs, and the infantry, probe the Russian defenses. The Kings then try to kill any Russian armor that reveals itself to fight these probes, while absolutely minimizing their own exposure time. But the right way to use 11 to 20 Tigers (I or King) against a force of T-34/76s, is to drive up through them blowing up anything you can see, while the IVs and StuGs trail and mop up bypassed infantry and such. The Germans apparently thought they would be getting this sort of fight - and got their heads handed to them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmavis Posted August 14, 2007 Share Posted August 14, 2007 Originally posted by Der Alte Fritz: Thanks for this great information. Has anyone done a scenario of this action? What were the essentials of this action that allowed the Russian tanks to be so effective? 1)The King Tigers being limited to the road. 2)The Germans attacking and hence moving into fire from concealed tanks. 3)Lack of supporting troops? cheers "The Royal Opponent" is the name of the most prominent one, based on that account which Bigduke6 posted. It's on the Special Edition CD. I don't know if it's on the original. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David I Posted August 15, 2007 Share Posted August 15, 2007 Shmavis, George McEwan and I are playing that scenario right now. I'm the Russians and I'm whittling down his Tigers (it's fought in the fog at 200 meter range). There are burnt out tanks all over the place. I've attached a picture of knocked out Tigers and T-34's that gives you an idea of the ferocity of the battle. We are talking about replaying the scenario with no fog and Russian air support. DavidI 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 15, 2007 Share Posted August 15, 2007 David I, Me, too. NG Cavscout's the Russians. Hair-raising way to fight! Lumps taken on both sides. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEY Posted August 15, 2007 Share Posted August 15, 2007 I have a version over to TSDII, nobody has ever commented on it. It is a Axis versus AI, though it should be playable as H2H. DEY-Desperate Measures E1 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David I Posted August 15, 2007 Share Posted August 15, 2007 Dey, Thanks. I'll check it out. DavidI 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigduke6 Posted August 15, 2007 Share Posted August 15, 2007 Also, terrain (which kept the Tigers on the roads or at least limited their movement) and visibility (apparently foggy at times) helped the Soviets out as well. But I think a key thing to remember when considering this action is that the King Tigers in this action were real ones, not CMBB ones. That made them a good deal more vulnerable to Soviet fire than in the game, as - large-caliber hits to the front of a Tiger could hurt it and even kill it w/o penetrating, by bashing machinery inside the Tiger - repeated hits could make the Tiger armor degrade and even fail - The Soviet 122 (the Soviets said) could punch through the front of the Tiger's turret at normal combat ranges. Those weaknesses plus the terrain plus the German tactics plus the visibility, and it's not so hard to understand how the Tigers got shot up. CMBB King Tigers are alot tougher than that, of course. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted August 15, 2007 Share Posted August 15, 2007 I rather doubt the fog was as significant in the real deal as it is in that scenario. The combat report says they got kills at full km distances. Of course the 122mm should go right through the turret front routinely. Never doing so makes it hopeless to recreate the actual situation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavier Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 I've made an operation about this battle... Here But, the briefings are in french. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergeltungswaffe Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 Xavier, I can't find a d/l link on that page. What should I be looking for? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeatEtr Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 Me neither, apparently we need to register with the site. Which ain't gonna happen as I don't speak French. Why not post this Op at TPG or SDII? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philippe Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 I've often found the Appuis-Feu site a bit hard to wander into, and for Anglophones it must be even worse. And I'm sure Francophones have a similar problem when they stray into TPG II (I know I do, and I'm relatively fluent in English). When I was still using my old computer I was able to download from Appuis-Feu from time to time, and many of the scenarios and maps were truly impressive. As things are set up now there is a bit of an iron wall (or at least a wall of nuisance) between the Anglophone and Francophone CM gaming communities. Which is a real shame, because there's some really good stuff over there (at one point I was even toying with the idea of translating one of R2's scenarios into English because I had enjoyed it so much). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavier Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Sorry, I forgot the registration stuff on Appui-Feu Working link for "Mazurka rouge" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergeltungswaffe Posted August 24, 2007 Share Posted August 24, 2007 Thanks 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 Looks interesting, Xavier. It seems like a waste you don't post your battles at the Proving Grounds, of the scenario depot. This operation certainly looks like it deserves more attention. And, Philippe, if you would be prepared to translate the battle you are talking about, please do. Ask Xaviers permission and show us the glory of France! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Alte Fritz Posted August 26, 2007 Author Share Posted August 26, 2007 Just finished Royal Opponent - great battle and i was able to finish off one group of King Tigers and was just stalking the other group when the battle ended. I felt that perhaps the grounds should have been a little softer so that the KT were confined to the road more. They seemed to wander around even scattered trees without bogging. cheers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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