Ok, Played the demo last night and am confused..

[Dave K]

Greetings once again. Many thanks to those of you who replied to my post yesterday. I hope this email is not asking too much as I have a number of questions. Once I decide to do something (like get into CMBB, it's balls to the wall from that point forward) So.... I played the demo last night and really felt a bit confused. In my desire to find the best strategy war game I was pointed to CMBB. I read all the reviews and was totally impressed with what the gaming community was saying about this software. I even reeled in a buddy of mine down the street who I knew would really get into a night of war gaming and a bottle of canadian club. Anyway... we fired up the demo and to be honest we were a bit let down. Is the demo a different experience than the released version?

I have a few questions - We both had troops turn into symbols (russian or german) What does that represent?

Is there a way to get a war update? as in KIA or progress (besides the percentages)

It seemed as if the maps in the demo were very small. It seemed as if we were playing on 500 acres instead of X miles. Are the maps in the released version larger?

In the read me file it mentions blue and red colored areas on the map... is there a way to view a larger map other than the battlefield view itself or the small map on the command bar?

I really feel as if we must have been missing something. I kept waiting to get sucked into the battle and it never happend. My first impression was "Close Combat was more fun" I understand this impression should change sooner than later. For me the $50.00 is a good chunk of change right now and I want to make sure that this is a good purchase. I see this active community darn near living and breathing CMBB - So this leads me to believe I must be missing something.

Thanks again for your feedback and assistance.

Dave

[Bone_Vulture]

I'll just take the easiest one off the top:

Originally posted by Dave K:

I have a few questions - We both had troops turn into symbols (russian or german) What does that represent?

This is the last known position of the spotted enemy unit. If this unit hides, sneaks away under foliage or runs behind a hill, you'll obviously lose LOS. Remember that the enemy units may wander far off from the spot undetected, so don't trust the markers to give you an accurate picture of the enemy troops's whereabouts.

[MikeyD]

About the demo:

- Opposing troops turn into symbols when your troops lose sight of them. The symbols represent sort of a 'last spotted at' device.

- I can't think of a way for a total kill update.

- I bet I know the cause of your 'small map' problem. The menu at the bottom has a unit size option. When I first fired up the game the units were displayed oversize and had to be switched to true-scale. That would pretty much double the preceived size of the map.

And the game usually isn't played on X-mile size maps (though they can certainly be made) but on maps sufficient for the troops used. Why have a 6km deep maps when all you've got for forces is troops with rifles with a 600m range?

And finally, the general opinion is the demo scenarios don't really show the game it it's best light, but it does let you play with the controls and 'kick the tires'.

[ March 26, 2003, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[MikeyD]

[deletes, double post.]

[ March 26, 2003, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[Hawk]

Hi Dave! Welcome to the forum!

First of all, the CM series are tactical battles, not grand strategy. Nor are the battle related (except for opperations, and they are simply somewhat larger battles IMHO). So no, you won't get any impressions about the progress of the war because there isn't any! I think that's the part you're missing.

The symbols are just to show that "this is the last accurate reported spotting of enemy unit X".

The map can range in size from 100x100 meters and up to 9 square km (if I remember correctly).

If grand strategy is your forte, I'm not sure you'll be 100% happy with CMBB, but if you want to really get into the heat of a tactical battle, you can't get anything better!

[Lars]

Anyway... we fired up the demo and to be honest we were a bit let down. Is the demo a different experience than the released version?

Very much. The demo was to show off some of the new stuff. The full version is very much a deeper experience. You should also download the CMBO demo which was a better demo from a game play perspective.

We both had troops turn into symbols (russian or german) What does that represent?

Last spotted position. Fog of war can be turned on to different levels at the game setup if you always want to know where everyone is.

Is there a way to get a war update? as in KIA or progress (besides the percentages)

Not till the end of the game.

It seemed as if the maps in the demo were very small. It seemed as if we were playing on 500 acres instead of X miles. Are the maps in the released version larger?

Maps in the full version can be quite a bit larger.

In the read me file it mentions blue and red colored areas on the map... is there a way to view a larger map other than the battlefield view itself or the small map on the command bar?

The blue and red areas are where you initially set up your troops. For different views of the battlefield use the 1 – 9 keys to cycle through them.

[Edward Windsor]

Hello Dave,

It sounds like you might be better trying the Beyond Overlord demo. I think that will give you a much better idea what all the fuss is about.

Teddy

[nevermind]

Originally posted by Dave K:

[sNIPS]

......In my desire to find the best strategy war game I was pointed to CMBB.

Dude,you know whats funny,you have found the best war strategy game there is,IMHO.What im about to say may sound rude,but im just trying to be blunt and straight forward.You dont know anything about the game yet.You dont even understand how FOW(fog of war)functions.The thing about this game that will get you hooked,is that the more you learn,the more you will see that there is so much more to learn.

Just look at the number of people here,and the number of responses you have already gotten.Do you honestly think we'd all be here if this game sucked?

I have never played the demo,but from what i've heard,its main goal was to show how different it was from CMBO.That being said,i must advise you that jumping straight into CMBB might be daunting.I started in CMBO,which is more primative in alot of aspects,and made the transition into BB alot easier.

Bottomline,if you like war stategy games,then you will love this one,you just have to give it some time.I advise you to look near the bottom of the main forum for the archives.Now they do mainly apply to CMBO,but there is an enourmus wealth of knowledge there that can for the most part be applied to BB,it is well worth the time.You should also check out the FAQ

as it also has alot of very useful info.

I would hate to see someone get so close to an awesome game,and give up before they realize what they have.Also,months from now,when you think your getting good,and beating the AI consistantly,give multiplay a try,it will humble you very quickly

[MikeyD]

About those blue and red areas on the map, they only appear at initial startup, more or less as a tool of the scenario designer for initial troop disposition. After turn 1 they're completely superfulous.

[Fly Pusher]

Firstly welcome to the fold. You will be assimilated shortly....

Secondly the CMBB demo blows chunks and is not a fair representation of the full game. Battlefront were under great pressure from folks like us to show off the changes that they had instigated between the original CMBO and CMBB. The demo shows these changes but does not (IMHO) give a good intro into the concept of the game as a whole.

If I were you I would go and download the CMBO demo and play that all night..... and all day, and all the next night too.

Also:

Originally posted by Dave K:

In the read me file it mentions blue and red colored areas on the map... is there a way to view a larger map other than the battlefield view itself or the small map on the command bar?

Yes - press the number keys whilst you are setting up your troops at the beginning of a battle. This changes your perspective of the battlefield. Some hardcore nutters like to spend an entire battle in view 1. Others prefer the god like 3 or 4.

You will find that the higher numbers give a birds eye view. 8 or 9 give you a view of the whole battlefield and will highlight the red and blue 'setup zones' in which you can initially position your troops.

Have fun !

[MikeyD]

One thing I should mention, if you're envisioning a progressive engagement game where you advance from town to town gaining medals and promotions you'll be pretty disappointed.

CMBB's more a tactical problem solving game. The scenarios are stand-alone entities, often based on actual events and given a good deal of historical prespective in the opening orders. But still stand-alone entities.

The operations are a different matter, as they do offer a varying number of battles that advance progessively on a scrolling map. But I must say operations have not been worked to their full potential yet and aren't the true backbone of CM.

[Dave K]

Brothers in arms...

Thanks so much for the advice. I have been part of a number of different forum communities covering a number of hobbies and have yet to see a forum this active. I will indeed download the original tonight to gain a better perspective of the game. I am looking forward to the full version once pay day arrives. I m starting to see where you are going with "Tactical" - I also think that last night with the demo we started our turns from the original posistion and never really deployed (if I understand what u are saying correctly)

Thanks again and talk soon!

Dave

[MeatEtr]

Dave, lol, haha, this is funny. Im not laughing at you im laughing at the fact that this is how it works. You pretty much sound exactly how i did and most others when they first tried cm. CM's first play experience is filled with "Whats that mean?". Just stick to it and you'll be hugely rewarded.

Its like finding a gem or a nugget of gold. It may be covered in mud or look like just another rock. But once you clean it off and discover what it really is, you'll be rich(utterly hooked).

P.S. The manual is large and extremely helpfull. Combine that with the F.A.Q here and your set.

[Dave K]

call me crazy or blind... The only FAQ I can find is up there in the right hand corner. that brings me to the FAQ of the forum and forum rules.... Please advise!

Dave

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by Dave K:

call me crazy or blind... The only FAQ I can find is up there in the right hand corner. that brings me to the FAQ of the forum and forum rules.... Please advise!

Dave

Check this FAQ thread.

[jdmorse]

The FAQ is at http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=004792

Nevermind provided the link where it says

'FAQ'

As for the setup, when you first start the units are usually just placed in line. Or where the designer default is. if they are any color other than orange and in a set up area, you can move and "deploy" them, any which way you like.

[mike_the_wino]

There is a thread "FAQ, Newbies Please Read" by Soddball. As there are no "sticky" threads it floats up and down. Read the whole thing and you will see a sick bunch populate this forum.

Gotta run and see how the "story" is unfolding....

[ March 26, 2003, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: mike_the_wino ]

[Dave K]

Thanks again guys! Off to War!

[Ales Dvorak]

Too much fuss for 45$.

[aka_tom_w]

Hey Dave K,

Have you seen this yet?

it looks better on this page:

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=004683

Thermopylae

Member

Member # 3395

posted June 07, 2002 07:11 PM

One Primer, Soon to be sent somewhere...

My First Burning Sherman, a CM primer.

Contents

1.The Really Basic Stuff

1.1 The CM Camera

1.2 Selecting Units & Issuing Orders

1.3 Movement Orders and Waypoints

1.4 Targeting Orders

1.5 The LOS tool

1.6 Hiding

1.7 Ambush

2. HQ Concepts

2.1 Command Radius and Platoon Leaders

2.2 Command Delay

2.3 Command Bonus

2.4 Higher HQs

3. Indirect Fire

3.1 Forward Observers and off map Arty

3.2 On Board Mortars

Chapter 1: The Really Basic Stuff

1.1 The CM Camera

First and foremost, CM involves a 3D battlefield. This often makes for an initially confusing

experience, as you whip around a lot and tend to lose track of things, but is quickly

overcome. Controlling the camera is relatively simple. Merely place the cursor at the top of

the screen as if you were scrolling to go forward, bottom of the screen to reverse, and left

or right to turn the camera that direction. Alternatively, the arrow keys may be used with

the arrows all performing the same function as placing the mouse on that portion of the

screen. ( Up goes forward, left turns left, etc.) Next, there are several different camera

angles the player can work from, being numbered 1-8. You may switch to a view at any time

by pressing the appropriate number. The first four views are complete 3D views, as follows:

1. Ground Level: The camera is kept skimming just off the ground, about the height of a

soldier’s head. This is useful for plotting sneaky movements along depressions and

watching replays, but easily becomes thoroughly confusing. I recommend staying away from

it during the orders phase.

2. Not Quite Ground Level: To be honest, this is the least useful view in CM. It angles the

camera downward, but remains fairly zoomed in, and as such you can’t see much beyond the

immediate area. Makes for some cool screenshots though. (Which, by the way, can be taken

w/ alt + print screen)

3. Local Command View: This is the equivalent of having the camera hovering in a church

steeple above the ground. It is useful for judging elevation, lines of sight and so forth, and

is essentially the view from which to micromanage. Usually this view can be used to

command a platoon or two, or individual tanks, without any difficulty.

4. Command View: If you are ever confused by what the camera is doing, hit 4, center the

cursor, and rotate until you see a friendly unit or particular landmark. This view lets you

examine the entire battlefield in 3D, and is thus the most important one in the game.

Views 5-8 are top down maps of various zoom levels. Not particularly useful compared to

View 4, but they do have their moments.

Note: Shift C can be used to increase the image size of your units, making finding them

easier. Shift B toggles unit bases on or off, providing large squares of color to highlight

units.

1.2 Selecting Units and Issuing Orders

To select a unit, place he cursor over it and left click. You can then either ENTER to view the

unit’s vital statistics, TAB to center the view behind the unit, or an orders hotkey to, well,

give an order. To select a group of units, drag a box around them, or double click their HQ

(see HQ concepts)

To give orders to a unit, right click on it. For a group, right click one unit of the selected

group. Upon your click, a list of orders will appear, as well as an orders line (a colored line

with a white box at the end) what you do with this depends on the order. Either way, you

move the orders line as you would the mouse cursor.

1.3 Movement Orders

Once you have selected a unit to give orders to, as mentioned above, select a movement

command (see list at end of this numeral). You will now have an orders line with a white

box at the end of it. This white box represents where you will tell your unit to move upon

left clicking, the orders line represents the path they’ll take.

Often enough, however, you will not want your units to move in a straight line to a

destination. To create waypoints in a movement path, drag the orders line to the

designated waypoint and right click. You will now have locked that waypoint in, and will

have a new orders line originating from that point. On the final leg, left click to seal the

orders.

Note: Group orders cannot be waypointed. They also just replicate an order for the entire

formation. Thus, run 250m at 27 degrees to that building becomes run forward 250m at 27

degrees to all units in the group.

Movement Orders (Infantry)

Run: Men run forward without stopping until they reach their destination, are all killed, or

more likely, become damn fed up with being shot. They will fire at targets of opportunity.

Some units, like MGs, cannot run.

Move: Men walk forward as per conditions of run. Less fatiguing.

Sneak: Unit treads forward stealthily (less likely to be spotted, won’t commence fire while

moving) and will stop and return fire if fired upon. Typically they’ll find cover as well. (This

is sort like a "Movement to Contact" order, use this if you want to advance and have your

infantry STOP and return fire when fired upon, in the case of Move and FAST they keep

moving forward no matter what while under fire, I suggest you use SNEAK all the time when

there "might" be an enemy contact in your path!)

Crawl: Units crawl forward with a low tolerance for incoming fire. Best used behind

walls/hedges. Will not fire while moving. Very stealthy, very slow.

Withdraw: Unit runs away as fast as possible with no command delay. (See HQ concepts)

can only be used towards friendly map edge, and risks severe morale penalties.

Halt: Cancels all movement orders.

Vehicles:

Move: Universal walking pace.

Fast: Vehicle zips at top speed towards destination.

Hunt: Unit moves forward at a medium pace, and will stop to engage any vehicle sit spots.

Reverse: Vehicle will move backwards to destination at a medium-fast speed.

1.4 Targeting Orders

There are two basic targeting orders in the menu. The first is the simple TARGET command.

Upon clicking this, an order line will appear for you to drag to either a target unit or terrain

feature. If you highlight an enemy unit, a small data readout on your firepower and their

exposure will be shown for infantry targets, or a hit chance/kill chance if you target a hard

vehicle with a non-small arms weapons. Small arms versus vehicles only display the target

name. Left clicking on this unit will make it the primary target of your selected unit.

Note: If you do not have LOS to the target, (the orders line will turn orange up to the point

of blockage and black thereafter), left clicking will just set it as a priority target for your

unit, which will try to fire on it if it comes into view.

The TARGET command, when used on a terrain feature, creates an area fire order. The unit

under command will fire to try and suppress that patch of ground until the TAC AI decides

it’s a really bad idea (i.e. enemies show up 10m on the left of the unit) or you cancel the

order. This is NOT as effective as targeting individual units.

The NEXT TARGET command rapidly cycles you through targets the unit can see and the TAC

AI thinks worthy of shooting full of holes. Note that this sometimes means you won’t be

able to target some units with NEXT TARGET. (Just use the Hot Key "N" select a unit and hit

the "N" key to see all the targets it "thinks" it can shoot at.

You can Cycle through all your units with the "+" and "-" keys. Just hit + to hop to the next

available unit, and then hit "N" to see what it can shoot at.

I prefer to play with Unit Bases ON (Shift and I like to have all my target line and

Movement Paths on as well, Shift "P" to cycle through those options.

When Selecting units in Vehicles this can be tricky so sometimes you need to Shift V to turn

off the graphic on all vechicles so you can jut see the occupnats. Hope that helps.

1.5 The LOS tool.

Essentially, the LOS tool functions exactly like a TARGET command, but clicking will not

assign a target.

1.6 Hiding

In order to generally remain unseen, the HIDE command is used. There is no order line. The

unit merely hits the dirt and qualifies as hiding. Once a until is hiding, it will try to refrain

from opening up until it has a good chance to kill enemies (or the unit “freaks out”, more

likely with low experience troops), it starts receiving heavy fire, or it gets the bejesus

beaten out of it and runs away (Usually accomplished with artillery). While hiding, troops

are very difficult to spot, but suffer a minor spotting penalty themselves.

To stop hiding, re-issue a hide command or give any regular order.

To Hide at the end of a movement order, plot the movement order, and then issue a hide

order. The unit will move to its destination and then hide.

Note: Vehicles and HIDE are just a bad combination. Vehicles do not actually hide, what

they do is quiet there engines down so they won't end up as a sound contact to the enemy,

if you have a tank waiting in ambush, behind a house or a hill or something (clearly out of

LOS) then select Hide for the tank (while it is NOT moving) and it will quiet down its engine

so as not to makes sounds the enemy can detect as a sound contact of enemy armour.

IMHO this is of very dubious value.

1.7 Ambush Markers

Sometimes you’ll want to custom tailor an ambush beyond just hiding and hoping something

wanders into range. To do this, select either an HQ or a crew served weapon (like a

bazooka) and then select the AMBUSH command. This will generate a targeting order, which

you can then drag to anythingwithin ~400m. Upon left clicking, an ambush marker will be

set at the end of the targeting line. In the case of HQs, this marker represents a

pre-planned ambush, and other units under the HQ’s command (see HQ concepts) can target

it to participate in the ambush. When an enemy unit crosses this point, the units that have

targeted the marker will fire on the enemy. For crew served weapons, the marker merely

serves as an ambush for that weapon, and other units may not target it. This would be the

equivalent of telling a bazooka to fire when a tank shows up at that break in the hedgerow.

Chapter 2 - HQ Concepts

2.1 Command Radius and Platoon Leaders

All infantry squads in the game are assigned to a particular platoon. Ever platoon has an

attached HQ unit which is its commander. In addition to representing the actual command

staff of the platoon, this unit represents its center of effort and cohesion. As such, all units

must stay within a certain range of their HQ in order to be “In command.” This range is the

command radius of the HQ. The radius increases with experience and particularly good

leaders, and decreases in thick terrain or if the subject

unit is out of LOS. Units that are in command have a red line leading from them to their

command unit. Units that are out of command have a black line. A Platoon HQ shows all

lines, red or black, to its organic squads.

Note: Infantry squads cannot be commanded by platoon HQs from other platoons, but crew

served weapons can be under anybody’s command.

Units that are out of command suffer morale and fighting penalties, delayed reaction times

to orders, and do not get the benefits of any command bonuses that HQ might have.

2.2 Command Delay

For movement orders, your men do not react automatically. Every movement order has a

time delay before it actually begins. More experienced troops, troops who aren’t being

suppressed, and troops that are fully rested have better reaction times than their

counterparts. The biggest factor, however, is whether or not the unit is in command. Units

that are out of command seem to suffer an additional 66% time delay. This doesn’t mean

much to the best of the best whose reactions are incredibly fast anyhow, but for regular

troops that’s an additional 13 seconds at least.

2.3 Command Bonus

Not only do HQ units allow those under their command to fight to the fullest extent of their

abilities, but often they add bonuses to unit performance. Units must be in command to

receive these bonuses. The 4 areas of command bonuses are:

Combat: Adds to the firepower/accuracy of the firing units as if they were more experienced.

Is represented by a lightning bolt in the unit bar.

Morale: Troops have the morale equivalent of an additional level of experience for each

level of this bonus. Heart in the unit bar.

Stealth: Troops are generally stealthier and spot other units better. Question mark in the

unit bar.

Command: Command delay is changed as if the unit were one level of experience better for

each level

of this bonus. Also creates a larger command radius. Star in the unit bar.

Each bonus may be either one level (represented by the symbols above) or two, (above

symbols surrounded in a gold box)

2.4 Higher HQs

Besides platoon HQs, there are also Company and Battalion HQs in CM. One of these HQs

automatically assumes command of any infantry squads in command radius not in

command, and all crew served weapons in its command radius. They will not, however,

assume command of infantry squads under the command of their platoon leaders.

Chapter 3 - Indirect Fire

3.1 Forward Observers/Off board artillery

Off board artillery in CM is abstracted through the forward observer unit. Each FO is a team

of two men that represents one off board battery. An FO does not fight like a traditional

infantry unit, rather when the TARGET command is used, creating a blue target line. An

artillery strike is requested on the targeted location. In the unit information bar, you should

see the time remaining until the artillery strike arrives. Allied times are usually better, and

smaller caliber weapons are typically faster to respond as well.

Once there is one minute left until the strike, the time will start counting down in seconds.

Around halfway through a few spotting rounds will fall, and then when the timer hits zero

the battery will start firing for effect, unleashing volleys of four shells at a time. It will keep

firing until the battery runs out of ammo or you cancel the fire mission.

It is possible for the FO to request artillery strikes outside of its LOS. Simply drag the

target line out of LOS (it will turn orange and black, orange for what he can see, black for

what he can’t) and select an area to target. However, these strikes take about twice as long

to arrive, and are inaccurate in comparison to a spotted strike.

Also, you may wish to shift a fire mission a minor distance to accommodate for enemy

movement or targets of opportunity. To do so, select the TARGET command again, and drag

it around the current targeted area. As long as this line remains green, you may re-set the

target line for a minor time delay. If you place the new target outside the region in which

this line is green, you will have requested a new fire mission, and will have to wait for the

full battery reaction time.

3.2 On Board Mortars

On Board mortars must have LOS to a target to fire on it, unless they are in the command

radius of an HQ unit. If a mortar is in command, it may fire at anything the HQ unit can see,

even if the mortar itself cannot.

Most mortars on board also have a minimum and a maximum range they can fire. These will

be indicated by an “OUT OF RANGE” readout above the point of the target lien when issuing

a firing order.

[ March 27, 2003, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Dave K]

thanks so much. This helps!