Moving in snow - ridiculous

[Michael Dorosh]

Legend has it that Montgomery, while commander of 8th Army from just before Alamein in late 1942 to after the invasion of Italy in autumn 1943, only ever promulgated one dress order - during the battle of Sicily in July of 1943.

"Top Hats will not be worn in 8th Army."

A truck driver of the 48th Highlanders of Canada had been standing beside his truck, clad in a top hat as Montgomery went driving past.

Not knowing whether or not to salute, the driver gracefully doffed his hat instead.

Unfortunately, he was also not wearing a stitch of clothing, it being rather hot in Sicily in summer.

Hence the famous order.

[Cabron66]

Originally posted by Andreas:

There's always a cellar for you to do it in.

Yes, and unfortunately there's always a forum for you to be a moron in. I do commend you for one thing. Most people would be tempted to hide it, but you appear to be very comfortable with your own stupidity.

[Holien]

Meep Meep....

I guess sometimes humour hits a raw nerve.

It is not often that we find a German with a sense of humour and since he has been on the program in London it has been developed further to what you see today.

I guess we need to give him some coaching on how sensitive some Canadians can be. Until now he has only had MD to play word games with and now you come along and he has to re-learn what is acceptable.

Anyway, in a German way he attempted to offer an Olive branch and he is accused of being a dolt.

Meep! Meep!

(Beaker that has a certain ring to it and I wondered where I had seen him before, be careful this might have hit a raw nerve with Andreas as we are talking about his brother.)

Anway back to the thread.

Jon great photo's.

And the original thread, I still think the snow is white enough and the abstraction in the game makes sense when you throw in the ideas expressed by certain chaps from the pool.... (who keep slipping out, tut tut).

H

[ September 17, 2003, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: Holien ]

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Originally posted by Andreas:

My grandfather started World War II in Poland at the age of 25 as a German private.

So he was the cause of WWII breaking out and not Hitler. Well, I never!

Regards

Jim R.

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by JonS:

huh - and I always thought he was a Commonwealth Grog. Well ok, a Teutonic, proper English speaking, London residing, pizza eating, energy saving, Commonwealth Grog (TPESLRPEESCG for short) if you want to be pedantic. But a CG nonetheless.

You left out Japanese beer drinking

For that alone, they'll never let him back in Germany

[JasonC]

I just tested it. I wonder how many in this thread besides the original poster have bothered to. It is way overdone. Specifically, the movement *rate* counts for way too much, while the environmental conditions, unit load, fitness, quality, and overall time spent moving don't count for nearly enough.

I tested in ordinary snow, not deep. I added extreme cold. January 1942 setting, Battle of Moscow stuff. The Russians had two force types, one picked and the other not.

The first were veteran guards with an all +2 leader, 1 platoon of infantry, and one each of many support weapons - sharpshooter, tankhunter, ATR, 50mm and 82mm mortars, LMG and MMG. The second were green rifle "B" type, no bonus leader, the two mortar and two MG types.

The Germans were 2 weakened, regular quality MG 34 HMGs.

The sharpshooter can't "advance", so I had him "run". He went from rested to ready in 2 seconds, to tiring in 20 seconds, to tired and slowed to move involuntarily in 33 seconds. A veteran guard sharpshooter in un-deep snow can't run for 40 seconds. His next fastest movement rate is "move".

(P.S. I am in decent shape but no male model; I am pushing 40; I eat too well when not dieting and not well enough when I must; in Chicago and New England winter I regularly run 6 to 9 miles in light snow or 3 to 6 miles in snow 6 to 12 inches deep. For the fun of it, not for my life).

The rest of the vet "fast" infantry I had move to start, which left them rested - not even "ready". When they switched to "advance" they went to "ready" in 6 seconds, tiring in 38. They reached "tired" just after a minute. Meanwhile the greens hit "ready" in 5 seconds, tiring in 33, and tired in 56 seconds.

All units, even the 82mm mortar teams, could "move" essentially indefinitely without fatigue. If shot at while using "move", however, anyone in the open immediately went to cover panic and sideways sneak. Sneak led to exhausted inside of 10 seconds for the teams, a little longer for others.

Essentially every movement rate other than "move" is banned in snow. Advance can be indulged for about 30 seconds, with 2 minutes pauses or so afterward if you want to do it again. Or for 1 minute once, staying at "tired" while still being able to "move" for the rest of the battle.

It seems to me this is a result of over fixation of fixed movement rates, rather than tactically differentiated ways of moving. Obviously an "advance" is a slower movement in snow than in fair weather on a level field. But it remains a different movement method than walking upright into MG fire.

At present this tactical difference is effectively nullified by the fatigue system. Everyone just walks. (The mortars and MGs went as far walking as the fast units did advancing and pausing to rest - with the former still "rested" and the latter "tired").

Instead of men fighting in snow fighting somewhat slower however they choose to move, and fighting under greater fatigue, what actually happens is everyone walks, except units that panic who become exhausted trying to do silly things the environmental conditions do not allow.

A better system would narrow the movement rate differences between the movement order types in poor environmental conditions, and cause fatigue for the heavier loaded units moving for long periods of time. The faster, less laden units might also tire moving long distances at their faster rates. Particularly the less experienced, the weakened, and the unfit.

As for Michael's questions, I was thinking in particular of accounts of the Battle of Moscow. The Siberians had fur while the Germans wore whatever captured civilian scraps they could lay hands on. Fur was a utility item in large portions of Russian in that era (and in some places still is today). Not a luxury item for rich housewives.

Did every private have a fur coat? No, not in all units certainly, though in some units (e.g Siberians) fur linings for the major clothing items were available even to enlisted men. Fur lined gloves or better still mittens, fur or felt lined boots, fur hoods for parkas and/or fur hats, were common items in many units, not officer luxuries. Some had pile hats, or quilted jackets and pants. Snow pants or smocks were common. The Russians were equipped like mountaineers, not like gentlemen expecting a winter about town.

[ September 17, 2003, 05:13 AM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[Gazer]

You should also remember that even if it's extremely cold you can't wear all your available cloths when moving. You must have something to put on after you stop. Otherwise you will freeze when you stop after sweating a lot.

Anyway, having all the clothes issued for one soldier of the finnish army on while moving is extremely stupid.

In real situation I would assume that the defenders might have a lot of clothes on while the attakers would propably have left their heavier clothes behind or would have them in their backbags. So, the heavy clothes don't have to be a problem.

Knee high snow slows down a bit, but doesn't tire you unless it's wet or has a hard ice surface. In waist high snow without skis 5 meters can be too much with heavy gear.

Markus

[Seanachai]

Originally posted by Cabron66:

Yes, and unfortunately there's always a forum for you to be a moron in. I do commend you for one thing. Most people would be tempted to hide it, but you appear to be very comfortable with your own stupidity.

O Canada!

Cabron's home and native land!

True patriot love this native son demands.

With glowing heart he sees thee rise,

The True North strong and free!

From far and wide,

O Canada, he stands on guard for thee.

God keep his land glorious and free!

O Canada, he stands on guard for thee.

O Canada, he stands on guard for thee!

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by JasonC:

As for Michael's questions, I was thinking in particular of accounts of the Battle of Moscow. The Siberians had fur while the Germans wore whatever captured civilian scraps they could lay hands on. Fur was a utility item in large portions of Russian in that era (and in some places still is today). Not a luxury item for rich housewives.

Did every private have a fur coat? No, not in all units certainly, though in some units (e.g Siberians) fur linings for the major clothing items were available even to enlisted men. Fur lined gloves or better still mittens, fur or felt lined boots, fur hoods for parkas and/or fur hats, were common items in many units, not officer luxuries. Some had pile hats, or quilted jackets and pants. Snow pants or smocks were common. The Russians were equipped like mountaineers, not like gentlemen expecting a winter about town.

I could have sworn my question was "what is your source for this" and not "please pull some more info on fur clothing out of your ass."

Thanks anyway.

[undead reindeer cavalry]

Originally posted by JasonC:

The rest of the vet "fast" infantry I had move to start, which left them rested - not even "ready". When they switched to "advance" they went to "ready" in 6 seconds, tiring in 38. They reached "tired" just after a minute. Meanwhile the greens hit "ready" in 5 seconds, tiring in 33, and tired in 56 seconds.

All units, even the 82mm mortar teams, could "move" essentially indefinitely without fatigue.

doesn't sound like advancing in snow would make a squad go from rested to tired in 10 meters, as the claim has been.

Obviously an "advance" is a slower movement in snow than in fair weather on a level field. But it remains a different movement method than walking upright into MG fire.

getting under fire while in snow is a game over situation anyway. nowhere to go, except underworld.

[ September 17, 2003, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: undead reindeer cavalry ]

[David Chapuis]

doesn't sound like advancing in snow would make a squad go from rested to tired in 10 meters, as the claim has been.

The claim about 10m was for deep snow. JasonC's test was in regular snow.

[JasonC]

I could have sworn I told you it was books on the battle of Moscow. I'd go to the library and look in Parrish to confirm it for you if I had the time. You can look yourself if you prefer.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Cabron66:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andreas:

There's always a cellar for you to do it in.

Yes, and unfortunately there's always a forum for you to be a moron in. I do commend you for one thing. Most people would be tempted to hide it, but you appear to be very comfortable with your own stupidity. </font>

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Holien:

It is not often that we find a German with a sense of humour and since he has been on the program in London it has been developed further to what you see today.

Thank you kindly, dear Sir, and greetings to the Missus. I will endeavour to deepen my knowledge of this 'humour' thingie, until I finally get to grips with it. Say, have I told you the one of the horse coming into a bar? Today was an exceptional day in the humour department, when I made some city types laugh about my presentation (or me, who knows).

I doff my bowler hat to you. Now I have to go and get out of my pin-striped suit, to watch 'spin city' in comfort. I am trying to train in North-American humour. Really, I just like to ogle Caitlin.

[JasonC]

Has the Peng drain backed up again or something?

[Andreas]

Originally posted by JasonC:

As for Michael's questions, I was thinking in particular of accounts of the Battle of Moscow. The Siberians had fur while the Germans wore whatever captured civilian scraps they could lay hands on. Fur was a utility item in large portions of Russian in that era (and in some places still is today). Not a luxury item for rich housewives.

Did every private have a fur coat? No, not in all units certainly, though in some units (e.g Siberians) fur linings for the major clothing items were available even to enlisted men. Fur lined gloves or better still mittens, fur or felt lined boots, fur hoods for parkas and/or fur hats, were common items in many units, not officer luxuries. Some had pile hats, or quilted jackets and pants. Snow pants or smocks were common. The Russians were equipped like mountaineers, not like gentlemen expecting a winter about town.

Looking back at your post, you did not qualify it the way you do now (Siberians, battle of Moscow), but instead appeared to be making a general statement (Russians, Germans, no time period), which I think brought Mike's query on. Do you have any info on the issue of winter clothing from winter 42/43 in the Ostheer? I'd be quite interested to know (roughly) how much was actually issued.

[Seanachai]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Has the Peng drain backed up again or something?

You're on the list, JasonC.

No, not my list of known Australians, the other list.

[JasonC]

Always helps to be constructive and propose something else if one sees something out of place, so here goes.

The issue is that the unit and conditions should matter more, in fatigue, and the movement rate chosen less.

Let the actual meters moved by "run" drop 20% in mud or light snow, by 40% in deep snow. For advance or assault, a smaller reduction - say 10% and 20% less respectively. So the movement rates are "converging" in worse environmental conditions. The short rushes in mud are jogs not sprints.

Fit, slow rated units in good weather should experience fatigue even on "move" after 5 minutes. Just "tiring", and a 1 minute pause will get rid of it. They are carrying over 50 lbs per man.

Medium speed units rated fit in good weather should be able to "move" continually.

Fit fast units should be able to keep up "run" for 2 minutes before "tiring" and up to 5 before hitting "tired" - in good weather. "Advance" they should hit "tiring" only in about 5 minutes. These are much more forgiving numbers than seen now, but more realistic - for fit fast units in good weather, mind.

Weakened units, or fit units in mud-snow, have movement *options* like fast units in good weather. But they tire like "medium" speed units.

Weakened (1), unfit (2), snow or mud (1), deep snow (2), medium speed units (1), or slow ones (2), all are cumulative "pluses" to rate of tiring. Already tired or worse should also add 1 (brown state, not "tiring" - red states could add 2). For *all* movement speeds, including "move".

Plus 0 allows up to 5 minutes of advance. Plus 1 means move indefinitely without tiring, only perhaps 3 minutes of advance. Plus 2 means move tires in 5 minutes, advance tires in 2. Plus 3 it starts getting hard - move in 3, advance in 1 minute. Then 2 minutes vs. 30 seconds for 4, 1 minute and 20 seconds, etc.

Run should be half the times of "advance". Sneak could be like run by I think like advance is more realistic - units crawl more in combat than they do in CM.

Conscripts might add 1 as well, while crack or elite might reduce 1. Green to vet should use the default levels, differentiated by fitness but not by experience.

I don't see a need for command to alter it, but optionally a +2 command rating might reduce the fatigue rate by 1, perhaps only if it is already 3 or higher.

The idea is to make it hard and slow and fatiguing to reposition an HMG or 81mm mortar in mud with weakened troops, even using "move", unless the overall distance travelled is quite short. While allowing fit ordinary squad infantry to use "advance" as they tactically would, with just somewhat more frequent minutes of rest interspersed if the conditions (or troops) are unfavorable.

Running a lot will still tire men out. Poor conditions and weakened units will tire faster. Heavy weapons will find it hard to keep up with the lighter squad infantry. Movement rates in meters per second will go down across the board in mud or deep snow.

But tactically differentiated movement rates will still exist. Players will still make choices about how to get from A to B. It won't just be "all 'move', all the time" except in brilliant sunshine.

I realize it is rough, but it is something positive to build from.

[Cabron66]

Originally posted by Seanachai:

O Canada...

I would just like to say that at no point have I sunk as low as this. Seanachai, at what point did you feel entitled to (a) get involved in a matter having NOTHING to do with you and ( offend me by twisting the words of my National Anthem. At no time have I ever attacked your nationality or that of Andreas.

Your actions are an act of cowardice equivalent to placing your thumb to your nose, forming your hand in a fan shape perpendicular to your face and moving the remaining four fingers independantly of each other while chanting "nya-nya-na-nya-na" from the rear window of a quickly accelerating car.

Of course, this forum and its format offer you the freedom to be a jackass with relative impunity so I must simply grit my teeth and resist the temptation to respond in kind. Doing so would be to insult your country and a great many people in it who would (and probably do)find you as repulsive as I do.

It is important to note that, as a jackass, you have the freedom to choose from an arsenal of tactics I and the rest of my kind have not had access to since we stopped rooting the insects out of each others fur.

Clearly I am at a disadvantage and must gracefully accept defeat.

[Cabron66]

Originally posted by Andreas:

I will endeavour to deepen my knowledge of this 'humour' thingie, until I finally get to grips with it...[/QB]

I'm not sure I can accept you running to hide behind your lack of cultural understanding. I do not speak German, have never set foot inside your country, have never liked Hogan's Heroes and do not like your beer, but I know enough to not compare you with your neighbours or them with you.

No one can know and understand every culture or every way of thinking, but we must get along and that is not always easy. If you deal with other cultures you must learn to respect them and the things they believe are important. Of course, it is impossible to not make mistakes. I have made hundreds over the years and have only succeeded in understanding a portion of those. It took me 3 years and 3 countries to understand what my Japanese girlfriend tried to explain to me when I was screamed at for putting on my shoes before stepping into the bathroom.

If your aim is to understand and get along with people then you must be willing to admit your mistakes and learn from them.

If your aim is to anger and infuriate then you should at least have the balls to do so when the other person can fairly respond.

If I misunderstood you then I apologize, but I do not recommend you continue to make comments of the sort you did. While not all Canadians are sensitive about the topic I assure you there are many of us who are.

Another way for you to move in the right direction would be to stop viewing our entire continent (several times the size of your own) as one homogenous glob filled with "North Americans". If you think that watching American television (especially Spin City which I believe features the acting skills of Heather Locklear and the post-rehab Charlie Sheen) is a good way to learn about Canadians or culture in general you are on the wrong track. No, sorry, not even when Micheal J. Fox graced NBC with his presence was that channel a notch on the culture barometer.

If you watched "Kids in the Hall" or "The Trailer Park Boys" on the other hand...now that's culture.

[ September 18, 2003, 04:06 AM: Message edited by: Cabron66 ]

[Seanachai]

Originally posted by Cabron66:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Seanachai:

O Canada...

I would just like to say that at no point have I sunk as low as this. Seanachai, at what point did you feel entitled to (a) get involved in a matter having NOTHING to do with you and ( offend me by twisting the words of my National Anthem. At no time have I ever attacked your nationality or that of Andreas.

Your actions are an act of cowardice equivalent to placing your thumb to your nose, forming your hand in a fan shape perpendicular to your face and moving the remaining four fingers independantly of each other while chanting "nya-nya-na-nya-na" from the rear window of a quickly accelerating car.

Of course, this forum and its format offer you the freedom to be a jackass with relative impunity so I must simply grit my teeth and resist the temptation to respond in kind. Doing so would be to insult your country and a great many people in it who would (and probably do)find you as repulsive as I do.

It is important to note that, as a jackass, you have the freedom to choose from an arsenal of tactics I and the rest of my kind have not had access to since we stopped rooting the insects out of each others fur.

Clearly I am at a disadvantage and must gracefully accept defeat. </font>

[Andreas]

OT/STARTS

Cabron, I am not hiding anywhere. I suggest you look up the word 'banter', and after that 'good-natured', in the dictionaries.

If you want to continue this discussion in a civil manner, you can email me, that way we avoid boring each and everyone here.

OT/ENDS

Now, does anyone have the numbers on winter garments issued to the Germans in winter 42/43, and or some uniform grog analysis of whether they were any good?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Now, does anyone have the numbers on winter garments issued to the Germans in winter 42/43, and or some uniform grog analysis of whether they were any good?

I am not sure what Cabron is on about; of course North America is one homegenous glob, television has ensured it is so. Unless he is actually claiming to watch *snicker" The CBC. Which would mean he is a subsistence fisherman in Labrador that doesn't have a satellite dish yet.

Back to the topic! No numbers, obviously, I doubt any would be found but the blanket lined winter parkas were fairly common starting the second winter 1942-43; greatcoats still seen, though.

By 1944 (I mention this only by way of comparison to 42-43), even men in SS units in the Ardennes in December were still wearing greatcoats over summer uniforms. Check out the pictures of Kampfgruppe Hansen, for example.

I would conclude that the issue of winter suits may have been somewhat chaotic. They were issued out each winter and withdrawn in spring (ie they weren't issued to individuals AFAIK). Possibly during the prep for the Ardennes Offensive certain factors prevented winter clothing from keeping up to some units? Or maybe they really were items that weren't produced in enough quantity?

I've worn a repro padded suit in fairly extreme winter conditions; I've always liked the parka but I admit not to having worn it with full kit, slept outside, or done any serious work while wearing it.

[ September 18, 2003, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Cabron66:

If you watched "Kids in the Hall" or "The Trailer Park Boys" on the other hand...now that's culture.

The one episode I saw of Trailer Park Boys seemed more to me to be about American culture - in fact, I thought the series was set in the States? The episode I saw featured a holdup of a grocery store by a man with a full auto Uzi and seemed like a weak parody of the American gun culture. It was indeed funny, but really said nothing about Canada other than what we think of Americans by watching COPS on cable.

The problem with Canadian culture is that we have never been able to define it (how does one really define a culture, anyway, but places like Germany, Italy et al have good working definitions in place).

I think mostly Canadian culture is defined by continuous outcries of "we're not American" when, really, that is exactly what we are.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by JasonC:

I could have sworn I told you it was books on the battle of Moscow. I'd go to the library and look in Parrish to confirm it for you if I had the time. You can look yourself if you prefer.

Jason, Jason, Jason. I thought maybe you had a more reliable source. When Ambrose writes a book about D-Day in its entirety, you forgive him when he says the Panther has an 88mm gun. If I was writing a book on the Battle of Moscow and read that the Siberians were clad in fur, I'd probably repeat the generalized statement myself without checking - knowing it wasn't a book about uniforms.

I am calling you on a broad generalization that I don't think fairly characterizes the Russian Army in general. I've seen the episodes of World at War et al that talk about "fur-clad Siberian" reinforcements. I tend to believe those are the same kinds of myths that are passed on by no one taking the time to dissect them simply because they are beside the point (usually they come up in discussions of bigger things, like, as you point out, "The Battle of Moscow"). Stuff like "Blitzkrieg" or GD being an SS division just get passed on as part of the mythology of WW II that started as soon as the shooting stopped and now has to be undone by historians.

We really do need Grisha here. From my cursory look at Zaloga's books, I see little evidence of fur, and in fact the use of synthetic fur (if that is what is meant by "fish fur") in uniform caps really does suggest that real fur was at a premium.

As always, uniforms are of interest to me and I would obviously like to know more. I'll discount entirely the Battle of Moscow book in the same way an armour researcher would pass on Ambrose's descriptions of main gun armaments.