AT gun tips

[walpurgis nacht]

In response to the thread below this on AT gun mix advice, I thought I would post some solid general tips on AT gun use.

First, in response to Zarquon's question about what gun to purchase as Kraut . . without a doubt the 75mmIG with HC is the best choice, bang for buck, in the game. They are cheap, move fast, have loads of HE, carry smoke, and are effective in the AT role well up to 1000 meters (with HC).

In fact, in AK I prefer this gun even over the pak40. The main thing is that HC is extremely hard hitting in comparison to AP shells. You will never need more than 2 penetrations to kill---no exception. And it more often kills with the first penetration.

Now, I'm sure they'll be a few of you that look at the numbers and feel inclined to respond, "but, . .but . . the penetration value is only 88 max and that doesn't touch the might of the pak40" Well my response is, the 75mmIG will take out any vanilla sherm, m10, and most of the other medium allied tanks better than the pak40, at any range. Yes, I realize a hull down m10 is theoretically impossible to take down with 75mmIG HC . . . but check the armor quality on it! It will in fact take it down faster than pak40 every single time. But don't take my word for it, run your own tests.

Someone recommended the 37mm with HC. I would actually try to avoid this gun unless in really tight terrain. While the HC has a much higher penetration value than the 75mmIG, the accuracy is a serious problem.

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keeping your AT guns alive!

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Everyone knows that against a good attacker, the turn after you open fire with an AT gun, that AT gun is dead. Here are a few tips to keep your AT guns alive.

First, I always choose 2 positions for EACH AT gun. The idea is, the turn you decide to open fire with the particular AT gun, you give him movement orders to begin say 55 seconds in, so he will be on his way to the new position by the very end of the turn. Obviously, you want to have your second position within 100meters or the slow AT guns will not make it to their new positions by the end of the game (another reason I adore the 75mmIG, which moves very fast). Obviously immobile guns like the 88 are a no go (In 1000 games I do not think I've bothered to purchase an 88 . . .total waste). Another way to cover your AT movement to the 2nd position is with a little smoke.

A generally good strategic plan in placing your AT guns----Guns should be placed in the middle areas, armor on the flanks. OK, everything depends on the terrain, available resources, and specific situation, but the above advice is a very good general rule of thumb. The reason for the AT guns placed in the middlish areas is so that you can be SURE to make them useful. If the attacker stacks a flank and attacks "right", than your AT guns on his left become useless, etc. Try to find middle positions that can hit both map edges (another good reason to have 2 AT gun positions ahead of time . . .one to cover each flank). Your armor on the flanks are mobile . . so if the attacker "goes right", you simply relocate your armor on the left.

You want to set things up so that if the attacker hits one flank, the AT guns in the middle will have flank shots, while your armor can hit him head on. If the attacker goes middle, your armor has the flank shots, while the AT guns hit him head on. Make sense?

Since you now have 2 prepared AT gun positions, another aid is to eliminate your foxhole in setup. Foxholes are seriously overrated in CM . . .I pretty much ignore them on defense anyway, or use them as markers for fallback positions, etc. Anyway, get rid of the AT foxhole because it drastically slows your movement down. Once you open fire with an AT gun, and you're off to relocate . .speed is critical. You want to get the hell out of there before the mortars start falling . .and the foxhole makes this much more difficult.

A BIG mistake even intermediate type players make all the time is they open fire too early. NEVER open fire with something just because you CAN . . .there must be a good reason (this pretty much applies to everything in CM, not just AT guns). A good attacker is going to send in his recon force to trip your cover arcs, locate your gun positions and destroy them, and then follow up smashing your unprotected forces. So, try and wait until the last moment possible to open with your guns. You don't want to fire off one shot while he's fast moving his armor, where his endpoint is to a safe place . . .unless you hit and kill the first shot, you just wasted your AT gun position. No, better is to let him feel safe . . . .let him move into your gun LOS for several turns, maybe even 10 or 20! Let him pound on some of your forward defenses, even when you already have LOS. Once the attacker feels it is safe, he will be more inclined to expose his armor . . and bring up reserves. It is then that you smash him.

Never "hide" your AT guns (or anything else really on defense), unless the enemy is within 10-20meters. You will not be seen anyway! Keep them up, with small cover arcs to prevent them from firing until you're ready. The reason for this is AT guns have binoculars and so are excellent spotters.

That's all I can think of for now.

[flamingknives]

The 37mm main job late war is plinking all the annoying recon vehicles so you don't have to expose youre heavier stuff. The Stielgranate is a nice backup in case things go pear-shaped.

The other way to deploy guns is on a reverse slope, so the enemy can't call mortar fire onto them without being on the crest.

[Joachim]

The Pak40 will need more hits to kill. But it hits more often. For long range, it rules. Especially when the range is above effective mortar range (ie to much scatter)

Though it will not hit as often as 3 lIGs on short or medium ranges. OTOH they have only a few HC rounds. Plus those lIGs need lots of mortar ammo to get destroyed.

It's in the mix. 3.7 AD or AT vs recon vehicles.

7.5 for the real thing. IG forward, PaK to the rear. If you are lucky, your opponent will not get full id's and deal with the IGs first, wasting mortar ammo or sparing your PaK... allowing it to withdraw.

Gruß

Joachim

[Zarquon]

I agree with Walpurgis. Never open up with anything unless you absolutely have to. If you see three tanks in a group, one or two will probably be in overwatch. Don't fire. Wait for them to close. I find that as a battle progresses, the attacker's forces tend to get more and more disorganized. After a while, you'll find a lone target. And even then, don't fire unless that tank is a direct threat to any of your units or will disappear behind cover soon.

Often you can find a single tile one level higher than the surrounding terrain that forms a kind of mini-crest. Placing your gun on the reverse slope of that tiny crest is all it takes to double the gun's lifespan.

Buying 75mmIGs for AT defense is interesting. I'll have to try that out.

I disagree with not hiding guns. Bad idea. In CM it doesn't matter how many spotters you have. One HMG or HQ with binoculars can cover a lot of ground and is much less vulnerable. Hide everything else or you risk losing it to arty or blind area fire. If your opponent has T-34 or bought lots of cheap Russian arty he can afford to plaster each suspected patch of woods with HE.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by Zarquon:

I disagree with not hiding guns. Bad idea. In CM it doesn't matter how many spotters you have. One HMG or HQ with binoculars can cover a lot of ground and is much less vulnerable. Hide everything else or you risk losing it to arty or blind area fire. If your opponent has T-34 or bought lots of cheap Russian arty he can afford to plaster each suspected patch of woods with HE.

Good intel is more than half the battle in this game. Every single unit, whether tank hunter, HMG, AT gun, whatever . . .should all be up, with a tiny cover arc (until you're ready to fire), so they can see. Firstly, you will NOT be spotted by the enemy unless he's within 10-20meters, even if you're not hiding . . .so long as you don't fire. Secondly, 1 HMG in back will spot fairly well, yes . . .but the more "eyes" you have up the better. Depending on which direction your units are rotated will make a HUGE difference in what they spot. There is simply no reason whatsoever to hide them . . . unless the enemy is super close, at which point you'll probably want to fire anyway.

[flamingknives]

lIGs are fairly unpleasant to face as they are cheap, but look and sound like 75mm Pak40s, so you tend to treat them as such. Thus, even when short of HC, they're still useful against enemy armour.

[BigDork]

That is assuming you get the HC. In one PBEM I'm playing right now I bought 2 75mm IGs and only one of the IGs has HC, and that's only one round.

Hopefully I'll get a gun damage or something with my HE though because my opponent was sneaky and brought his armor somewhere I didn't expect so all my ATs are on the other side of a hill.

[l.cassidy]

Originally posted by Walpurgis Night: They are cheap, move fast, have loads of HE, carry smoke, and are effective in the AT role well up to 1000 meters (with HC).

It's all very true, but I've always thought that an L/11 barrel and a notoriously inaccurate round like the HC didn't allow to hit the proverbial "barn in the cornfield", especially at this long(ish) range.

Wouldn't be better to engage an armored target at a shorter range with this kind of gun/ammo?

Regards,

Cassidy

[Alkiviadis]

I've found the following works well for me:

1. Hold your fire until you have a 50% kill probability, this means generally close range and/or flank/rear shots.

2. Emplace in woods/trees: I like to put my guns some 10-15 meters back from the treeline.

3. Mass your fires on one target, unless you have a 70% kill probabilty, use multiple guns/target: section & battery fire.

4. When taking fire, have the crew hide & remain hidden, The OpFor may be fooled into thinking they've knocked out the gun and direct their attention elsewhere, leaving your gun to kill again. I've found all of these tactics work. The above are all standard Soviet Army AT doctrine. a good scenario to experiment with is "Action at Manutchskaya", simply substitute on a 1 for 1 basis 76.2mm AT guns for all the T34s, maybe give the Germans another Tank company of Pz4s.

[Joachim]

The stupid AI will soon ignore hiding guns as they turn into "generic unit markers". The good player knows how to exploit a bug - or ask his unit if it killed the gun. Area fire rules.

To fool the TacAI, just hide the gun and set a covered armor arc. If that doesn't work - move the gun a little bit and then hide. Depending on gun experience the gun will setup for 1-4 turns afterwards, but it might survive.

TRPs increase the performance of guns - especially if there are choke points. The 3,7cm PaK with HC has a hit prob of >80% on a TRP 200m away (vet or reg with bonus HQ).

Gruß

Joachim

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by l.cassidy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Originally posted by Walpurgis Night: They are cheap, move fast, have loads of HE, carry smoke, and are effective in the AT role well up to 1000 meters (with HC).

It's all very true, but I've always thought that an L/11 barrel and a notoriously inaccurate round like the HC didn't allow to hit the proverbial "barn in the cornfield", especially at this long(ish) range.

Wouldn't be better to engage an armored target at a shorter range with this kind of gun/ammo?

Regards,

Cassidy </font>

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by BigDork:

That is assuming you get the HC. In one PBEM I'm playing right now I bought 2 75mm IGs and only one of the IGs has HC, and that's only one round.

Hopefully I'll get a gun damage or something with my HE though because my opponent was sneaky and brought his armor somewhere I didn't expect so all my ATs are on the other side of a hill.

Yep. That is a risk. But you know, you have better odds than not of getting HC rounds. And, 2 75mmIGs are still cheaper than 1 pak40, so I consider it very much worth it. Not to mention if you don't get HC rounds, the HE is good enough to deal with light armor and mech vehicles.

Also, I can't remember the exact start date when the HC is introduced . . .but it's early on in '41 sometime.

[BigDork]

the HE is good enough to deal with light armor and mech vehicles.

Unfortunatly I have a few Shermans coming my way.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by BigDork:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />the HE is good enough to deal with light armor and mech vehicles.

Unfortunatly I have a few Shermans coming my way. </font>

[Slappy]

I've effectively used IGs as ATGs on occasion, but they require a lot of care. In my opinion, the biggest downside to the 75mm is the low HC load combined with the low velocity of the round. I know you're going to say 'The velocity doesn't matter, the penetration is the same at all ranges for HC rounds!". True, low velocity doesn't matter for penetration, but it does for hit percentage. The low velocity HC rounds are inaccurate and you only get 2-4 on most loadouts. This means you have to open up under 500m to ensure a good kill chance (200m is even better). This limits your tactical choices and the low engagement ranges make your guns easier to spot. If you're going to go IG, I say go 150mm. At that calibre, you still have all of those problems, but you get an even more devistating anti-infantry platform and the 150mm HE is big enough that a near miss will force an abandon or track/gun damage on even the largest armor.

[Vixen]

I've used the 75mm IG to very good effect againt thin skinned armor but not so much against heavier stuff. Often I get very few HC shells as was stated by another poster. I agree it's a good choice for early to early-mid war for AT purposes but later in the war it just doesn't seem to cut through the heavier armor in my experience. Granted, I've only been playing a couple of months though..

[mike_the_wino]

I just did a quick test in open ground, July '43, against Churchills stuck in rocky so they couldn't move and the 75mm L35 did better than the 75mm L45, and the 75mm IG couldn't hit the cornfield much less the barn.

Cost:

75mm L35=54(reg)

75mm IG=30(reg)

and I think the 75mm L45 was 85. So it looks like the IG/ L35 combo is a better deal than the L45 by itself.

Now if there were trees results would differ.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by mike_the_wino:

I just did a quick test in open ground, July '43, against Churchills stuck in rocky so they couldn't move and the 75mm L35 did better than the 75mm L45, and the 75mm IG couldn't hit the cornfield much less the barn.

Cost:

75mm L35=54(reg)

75mm IG=30(reg)

and I think the 75mm L45 was 85. So it looks like the IG/ L35 combo is a better deal than the L45 by itself.

Now if there were trees results would differ.

Not sure what you're meaning here. What ranges are we talking? 75IG is fairly accurate even out to 1000 meters.

[mike_the_wino]

It was a map I use for armor trials. Eight lanes setup with strips of rocky ground and expanded setup areas. The rocky strips let me setup for 2000m, 1500m and 1000m tests. Lanes are flat with high walls on both sides so no chance of help from other units.

The quick test I did was on the 1000m mark. It was only a few runs so I could have been having a unlucky day.

[Wolfe]

The 75mm IG is good out to about 1000m, but beware if you're playing in the CMAK desert with dry or very dry ground conditions. The constant dust kicked up by the misses near the enemy AFV will definitely destroy hit chance and your guns will lose their target often, killing their accuracy. So you might have to let the tanks get closer before opening up in those conditions to reduce the chance of misses.

One slightly gamey thing about the 75mm HE chuckers is if you have a lot of them and gang up on enemy AFVs, they can quite quickly get gun hits and immobilizations. Penetrating the enemy armor isn't required at all to put it out of action, so don't fret if you don't have many HC shells. I've taken out King Tigers with hordes of 75mm Pack Howitzers, which have no chance of penetrating but will pepper the AFV into submission (immobilize and gun hit).

And after the AFVs are gone, the guns are quite good at stopping an infantry advance and eventually (after a few turns) chewing them up.

They can also draw enemy arty fire away from your troop concentrations, so they can be useful that way too, even if they can't directly contribute to the fighting while under the barrage.

And be sure not to place your guns deep into the trees or cover; always place them right on the forward edge (except for Rocky or Rough or Cemetery or Vineyard, where LOS isn't affected by the terrain it's sitting in). The extra hiding ability you gain by placing them deeper into cover is extremely minimal while the accuracy you lose as the targeting line gets darker and darker blue is significant.

BTW, the German 75mm Howitzer turns *much* more slowly than the IG 1918 or 1937.

You can place guns up to 14m behind a wall and still receive benefits from it (so long as the enemy unit is on the same plane as the gun). And look for depressions in the terrain (and reverse slopes, of course) where your gun still has good LOS out over its target area, but is as low down as you can place it.

- Chris

[ September 03, 2004, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: Wolfe ]

[Major Rags]

I found that a leader bonus goes a long way to providing staying power for any IG or AT unit. I try to put a Morale and Stealth bonus HQ in control. I've had AT guns in foxholes or rough terrain take 3-4 casualties and still return fire. Put a Morale,Stealth and Combat bonus on an AT position with forward cover and they can wreak havoc on a flanking AFV's.

[danielh]

I never go into a defensive battle as german without the 150mm IG. Around 45 rounds of HE will do forever and rout everything very very quickly. Add to that long lasting smoke and very good Tank killing ability. Even on Infantry attacks i almost always use one and end the game with some guns and around 20-60 men cas on the list, always a very good tradeoff for around 50-70 points, never lost one.

The 75mm IG is only a complement to the 150mm, and uses up ammo very quickly.

If possible i give them a HQ with a stealth bonus (don't know if it really works though).

I use AT-Guns only supplementing Tanks in terrain only suited to them, long woodlines for instance. A StuG, T-34, P4 comes for around 100 points, Marder even around the prize for a Pak40, whereas a Pak40 costs around 60-70 points. Mobility by far outweighs the 30 points. On dry open ground i can move a T-34 almost 400m in a turn ! AT-Guns and the mobility of defending Tanks can create very neat killing zones, with a lot of flexibility.

Greets

Daniel

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by danielh:

I never go into a defensive battle as german without the 150mm IG. Around 45 rounds of HE will do forever and rout everything very very quickly. Add to that long lasting smoke and very good Tank killing ability. Even on Infantry attacks i almost always use one and end the game with some guns and around 20-60 men cas on the list, always a very good tradeoff for around 50-70 points, never lost one.

The 75mm IG is only a complement to the 150mm, and uses up ammo very quickly.

Greets

Daniel

150mm IG is great. But it's extremely slow moving/rotating, much more expensive than 75mm IG, and much less accurate. Against a decent attacker the 150mm IG will die like clockwork, the turn after it opens up, from enemy mortars, unless you find a nice keyhole to use it so the attacker only gets sound contacts. But then, if you're keyholing a 150mm IG, seems to be a lot of bang for a very small area. Might as well go 75mm IG and cover many, small areas.

[JasonC]

The benefit of a leIG is that it puts fewer points in one package. They are OK at neutralizing point targets but don't do rapid area denial of whole bodies of cover like sIGs do.

Survivability of sIGs is indeed an issue. Good attackers duel them and take them out soon after they fire, if they are placed with too wide LOS. They still inflict considerable pain, but it isn't the best way to use them.

The best way is to save them for the right moment and then clobber only a planned area. You don't have to keyhole to do this, although that is one way on offense. You'd want to be able to reposition the gun, though, in that case - which is not easy (an SPW-251/1 prime mover, and scattered tree sites, works best when you do need to move one).

On defense there is a simple, canonical solution however. Place your sIG in a reverse slope position with wide LOS only to your own, near half of the battlefield. Behind the victory flags and able to see any of them is a similar idea. The sIG should be one of the deepest assets in your defense, with LOS limited to 300-500m ahead of its own position. The angle it covers can be reasonably wide, it just can't be visible from the enemy side of the map.

The forward units of the enemy tend to be infantry. You wait for a large number of them to accumulate in LOS of the still-hiding sIG. Then fire. The first minute will decimate the immediate target area. After that you may still have targets (if he can't pull away readily), and if not it will be because his whole force had to pull out of your reverse slope area.

Then it just area fires at likely spotter positions along whatever LOS block "crest" separates your now secure area from the enemy. A different one each minute. You have the ammo, since the ROF is so low, to hit a spot every turn whether you know it is occupied or not. Exploding crestline, that is the phenomenon you want.

He might still sneak a platoon HQ forward to the crest, with LOS to the sIG, hidden, with mortars behind. Or get an FO to a similar location. If he does he does, more power to him. In the meantime he won't be making any progress, and any unit trying it has to cross your planned crestline defense somewhere. Presumably you have mines in some of those spots, the sIG is hitting others, others have infantry ambushes waiting, TRP arty is registered on another patch of woods, etc.

What a reverse slope sIG does is make it impossible for the enemy to pass the crest by using infantry mass in a favored, covered route. The open areas your MGs and such presumably cover. Others are blocked by obstacles. Someplace you leave a "covered highway", and then you slam the door with 150mm HE after a few guys are "in", and eat them.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by JasonC:

The benefit of a leIG is that it puts fewer points in one package. They are OK at neutralizing point targets but don't do rapid area denial of whole bodies of cover like sIGs do.

Survivability of sIGs is indeed an issue. Good attackers duel them and take them out soon after they fire, if they are placed with too wide LOS. They still inflict considerable pain, but it isn't the best way to use them.

The best way is to save them for the right moment and then clobber only a planned area. You don't have to keyhole to do this, although that is one way on offense. You'd want to be able to reposition the gun, though, in that case - which is not easy (an SPW-251/1 prime mover, and scattered tree sites, works best when you do need to move one).

On defense there is a simple, canonical solution however. Place your sIG in a reverse slope position with wide LOS only to your own, near half of the battlefield. Behind the victory flags and able to see any of them is a similar idea. The sIG should be one of the deepest assets in your defense, with LOS limited to 300-500m ahead of its own position. The angle it covers can be reasonably wide, it just can't be visible from the enemy side of the map.

The forward units of the enemy tend to be infantry. You wait for a large number of them to accumulate in LOS of the still-hiding sIG. Then fire. The first minute will decimate the immediate target area. After that you may still have targets (if he can't pull away readily), and if not it will be because his whole force had to pull out of your reverse slope area.

Then it just area fires at likely spotter positions along whatever LOS block "crest" separates your now secure area from the enemy. A different one each minute. You have the ammo, since the ROF is so low, to hit a spot every turn whether you know it is occupied or not. Exploding crestline, that is the phenomenon you want.

He might still sneak a platoon HQ forward to the crest, with LOS to the sIG, hidden, with mortars behind. Or get an FO to a similar location. If he does he does, more power to him. In the meantime he won't be making any progress, and any unit trying it has to cross your planned crestline defense somewhere. Presumably you have mines in some of those spots, the sIG is hitting others, others have infantry ambushes waiting, TRP arty is registered on another patch of woods, etc.

What a reverse slope sIG does is make it impossible for the enemy to pass the crest by using infantry mass in a favored, covered route. The open areas your MGs and such presumably cover. Others are blocked by obstacles. Someplace you leave a "covered highway", and then you slam the door with 150mm HE after a few guys are "in", and eat them.

That's good advice.

I know many players slack on it but I simply will not crest a new hill/ridge line, or move into a new area with my scouts unless I have mortar overwatch either setup already, or to be setup within 1 turn. This way, reverse slope guns die just as quickly. That is why I advocate weaker guns in greater numbers.