Ideas: What can BFC do to give CMAK a different feel?

[Patrick Moore]

Originally posted by Cpl Dodge:

I'd like to see them expand multiplayer gaming to include 3 or more players (2v1, 2v2, 3v3) rather than just 2 players. Each player would have their own units to control, and FOW would hide friendly units controlled by another player on the same side.

I am thinking of an operation where you have two commanders that are supposed to assault the enemy from opposite positions. In real life often friendly units were not in direct sight of each other, but could communicate through radio contact. Simulating that would bring in friendly fire situations, more realistic misidentification of units, and would be fun for two people to learn how to play together.

PBEM games would take longer, but I think it would be worth it.

Do you know if this as been considered before?

I like this idea, Cpl Dodge!

[Midnight Warrior]

1. Add some level 1 only play options. Example lock camera view to eye level of viewing unit (except playback). Allow higher view as a map view (perhaps remove actual units from display to better simulate a paper map).

2. Add more event driven Ear Candy. Like having .wav files that provide the voice traffic of calling in arty strikes as well as simulating other types of radio traffic such art arriving at check points or providng the WWII equivalent of spot reports, orders, or vocalizing whatever the Tac AI is thinking. Of course one could only hear his sides radios (unless you have some radio intercept capabiliy which I imagine wasn't available at the tactical levels covered in CM). To do this might require stitching some wav files together. Like

wavfile 1, "4"

wavfile 2, "Enemy tanks"

wavfile 3, "moving"

wavfile 4. "north"

wavfile 5 " on highway"

wavfile 6 "10".

wavfile 7. "Over"

It may sound a bit like the voice on an answering machine but it would still be neat ear candy.

3. Explicited model radios and radio nets and radio traffic (goes with 2 above).

4. Add user definable checkpoints with associated times. These could be displayed in 1 and used by 2 and 3 above as event triggers.

[ May 12, 2003, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: Midnight Warrior ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Everyone does realize that CMAK is basically a dressed up CMBB in the desert with limited new rules (ie multi-turreted vehicles and dust) but essentially will be the same game, but with British/American/Canadian/Polish/ANZAC units?

Yes?

You may want to edit the subject to reflect a CM II wishlist.

[MikeyD]

I figure (just guessing) that CMAK may be "CMBB in the Desert" in the same way CMBB was "CMBO on the steppes". Same game but BFC has a way of really surprising us by their cleverness.

I was hoping this thread wasn't going to devolve into a next game engine wishlist (dynamic lighting, working wristwatches on troops, etc.) and come up with some real doable tweaks to the game, but what can yah do?

[MrSpkr]

I'm still waiting for sensurround sound, dynamic ergonomic effects, and smell-o-vision.

Steve

[kipanderson]

Hi,

Yes, I do think people are asking a bit much, more like CMX2 than CMAK. BFC have been quite open about the fact that there will be very few changes in CMAK, not as many or as fundamental as the move from CMBO to CMBB. I think of CMAK as a last “bonus” game with the old engine.

Having said that, here is my wish for a new feature in CMAK. It is taken from a wish list I have for the new engine/CMX2, most of the items on the list standing no chance of making it into CMAK. However, the following “may” be simple to code, I do not know. It would be a huge help in a desert war where often, but not always, we are talking very flat terrain with undulations of just 1.25m to 2.5m making all the difference. (The strange thing about a Med game is that it will include both the flattest, and the most mountainous terrain, we have come across in CM.)

“Toggled Elevation Grid.

For me, others will differ; the one big human-to-computer interface problem is the lack of an ability to spot elevation/undulation changes realistically. Using the 1.25m elevation settings there is a greater change in colour for any given change in elevation, but even so, the real life ability to spot elevation change, undulations, is far greater then in CMBB. Computer screens just cannot handle it the way the human eye can in the real world. Thus the ability to toggle a grid on and off in the orders phase of the game so as to better spot undulations, would be a big plus.”

Spotting undulations of just 1.25m -5m can be quite time consuming. A bit like hard work.

All the best,

Kip.

[David Chapuis]

Somebody mentioned this already, but I think an option to record the entire game, and then be able to play it back at the end with options for FOW off/on would be really cool.

IMO, that again seems like something that wouldn't be too difficult.

[ May 13, 2003, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: Cpl Dodge ]

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Cpl Dodge:

Somebody mentioned this already, but I think an option to record the entire game, and then be able to play it back at the end with options for FOW off/on would be really cool.

IMO, that again seems like something that wouldn't be too difficult.

Full game replays have been asked for since CMBO, but the answer is clear: it is undoable with the current engine.

However, the idea of turning FOW off for final replay gives me an idea. Would it be feasible that when you are loading up a PBEM file and it asks for your password, you could press another button or keycombo and enter both your and your opponent's passwords (which he has told you after the game is over), in which case the replay is shown without FOW?

But whether something like this could be done, depends all on the way it has been originally coded (ie. are the changes easy enough to implement compared to the gain). Wouldn't really bet money on it.

[MikeyD]

CMAK-specific tweaks...

How about adding 'bare rock' tiles for making mountains!

The single-tile water to be an actual village well for the desert landscape (like some mods have already done for CMBB).

(I've asked for this before) How about aircraft-specific shadows? Or at least a Stuka shadow/'other' shadow? ...I think they already said not in this game engine.

Something gross. How about having dead soldiers swap-out their torso uniform bmp graphic for something more... disturbing, like the same torso uniform bloodied-up. (imagine the modding possibilities!)

A new sound for desert infantry: when you get REALLY close you hear the sound of flies buzzing.

How about a 'Louder Explosions' option toggle in the menu. In CMBB the explosion just don't seem to have the 'oomph' of the CMBO explosions. Maybe it's just my ancient mono speaker setup.

And one more. During night battles in the desert, you're able to designate areas for flickering campfire doodads like we do for cemetaries now. Of course we all know these campfire areas will ONLY be used for bait for traps, so nobody will use them properly!

[ May 13, 2003, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[Lou2000]

I think MOST of this thread has missed the point of MickyD's initial post ....

Beautifully summed up by Michael Dorosh

Everyone does realize that CMAK is basically a dressed up CMBB in the desert with limited new rules (ie multi-turreted vehicles and dust) but essentially will be the same game, but with British/American/Canadian/Polish/ANZAC units?

(I've asked for this before) How about aircraft-specific shadows? Or at least a Stuka shadow/'other' shadow? ...I think they already said not in this game engine.

I like this one ... though maybe not the shadows .. but some way to identify the a/c type ... in reality you could just look up Even if ONLY AA units could do it - maybe show what a/c they have ID'd in the status window ... with the usual BB chance of an incorrect ID

There is nothing wrong with some of the ideas ... but if it involved any major reworking of the AI then we just wont see it ..... BFC have been totally upfront with the aims of CMAK - It wont be the huge leap we saw between BO and BB.

As for me ... one I'd like to see is dust and dirt thrown up by impacting arty/mortar rounds ... dust that is, NOT a move back to the BO shockwaves.

And though there will be no major changes to incoroporate 'BCR' type functions into BB (a great pity though) it would help if you could import just the units (axis or allied) from a saved game into another map in the editor (or QB gen) ..... but I can live without it ! (good job really )

[ May 13, 2003, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: Lou2000 ]

[MikeyD]

Yeh, I'm hoping for some SMALL tweak suggestions that'll make CMAK players sit up and say "Well THAT's not how I remembered it happening in CMBB!"

A small preview of this would be the more gracefully unfolding smoke cloud in the CMBB v1.03 beta. I'd bet that's a direct steal from work they're doing on CMAK. Not in the same class as rewriting the whole game engine, but every building block makes for a more spohisticated product.

Another idea is adding a couple more infantry moves to the repretoire. Just one or two small random moves, like the squad commander nodding his head and pointing in the direction of the next way point when starting from a standstill like he was giving orders; or a bazooka man having a couple different ways to carry his weapon while on the march. Hell, how about seeing a soldier occassionally scratching himself while on one knee! Subtle stuff like that.

[ May 13, 2003, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[SFJaykey]

Well I was trying to make reasonable requests, like tweaks in the Seek Hulldown and S&S orders. And your suggestions of new infantry moves has given me another idea: new animations of the Advance and Assault moves. Why not have the 3 figures in the squad alternate between running and stopping to fire or lob grenades? For Advance two would be running, one firing, for Assault one running, two firing. Would make those moves less abstract, more realistic I think.

Dust will be a big addition I think, and hopefully will be kicked up not just by vehicles but by shells too, maybe even (briefly) by MG bursts hitting the ground (and dust devils on windy days ). And I hope we get a new Superheavy Building or Wall tile to simulate ruins and places like the monastery on Cassino.

- Matt

[ May 13, 2003, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: SFJaykey ]

[Boris Balaban]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Everyone does realize that CMAK is basically a dressed up CMBB in the desert with limited new rules (ie multi-turreted vehicles and dust) but essentially will be the same game, but with British/American/Canadian/Polish/ANZAC units?

Yes?

You may want to edit the subject to reflect a CM II wishlist.

If I remember right BTS was suppose to revamp the AI after CMBB and was to either to make it CMAF or back to the origanl game and give it the new AI. I think the final idea was to go with a new AI for CMAF but I guess as Michael Dorosh said above

[David Chapuis]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

Yeh, I'm hoping for some SMALL tweak suggestions

Small, of course, is a relative term. So what is small is your mind (and BFC apparently), is obviously different than small in my mind.

But anyway, for an even smaller suggestion, IMO. How about adding a button on the purchase screen that will take you to the unit info screen? And, as somebody else suggested, how about another section of the unit info screen for a description of the unit. That would help people like me who dont know the difference between a Gebergsjager and a fallschirmjager.

[ May 13, 2003, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: Cpl Dodge ]

[Guest Mike]

I know what they could do to give it a different feel - they could place it in some different terrain - like a desert or something, and have lots of tank units with marginal armour easily penetrated by guns but often not KO'ed instantly due to low lethality of those guns.

They could remove lots of the infantry anti-tank weapons like ATRs and 'shreks and bazookas and the like, and not put in many trees so that infantry have a hard time hiding.

I reckon a couple of changes like that would make for quite a different game from the 2 titles so far!

[Michael Dorosh]

The comment about the bare rock tile is a good one.

As a current workaround, you could probably mod this, by having elevation 19 and 18 as bare rock, that way when you do mountain terrain, the stuff over the tree line looks like that.

Given the recent interview Charles did about CM II, and the desire to expand the elevation changes in the engine rewrite, perhaps then we will see dedicated "mountain" terrain such as bare rock? But I digress...

As for CMAK tweaks - vineyard tiles, maybe? Great for Italy and south of France scenarios.

Get rid of sharpshooters. Instead, have two man "Scout/Sniper" teams. One armed with an MP/SMG and binoculars, and another with a scoped rifle. In real life, snipers often acted in teams. Designating them as scouts (another real-life use of snipers, at least in CW units which had scout/sniper platoons trained in both reconnaissance and sniping) would also let you use them historically and not have anyone cry "gamey" when your sniper goes wandering into No-Man's Land.

[ May 13, 2003, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[mchlstrt]

I would like to see vehicles that share the same .BMPs have at least one unique one like turret side or top so they can be 'marked' differently. Also a seperate Gun Barrel .BMP for some Flamethrower models would allow 'cutting it off' so they look like what they are.

strt

[Strontium Dog]

Camels and Peter O'Toole!

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Cpl Dodge:

That would help people like me who dont know the difference between a Gebergsjager and a fallschirmjager.

But that is easy! One is trained to jump out of a plane wearing ridiculous trousers and Chilean army helmets, while the other one chews Edelweiss while doing things with mules. Which is why he won't jump out of planes. The mules don't like it. Both of them eat iron, wee napalm, and are part of the Fantasmagorical Iconography of Wehrmacht Worshippers™ everywhere.

[David Chapuis]

Originally posted by Andreas:

the other one chews Edelweiss while doing things with mules

Actually, I do know what edelweiss is, even though it took me a long time to figure out it wasn't "ee-dul-weess". But that is only because of the Sound of Music.

[ May 14, 2003, 03:26 AM: Message edited by: Cpl Dodge ]

[SgtMuhammed]

I always thought you mountain troops were strange. Mules Andreas?

Here's one that shouldn't take much effort. Make Invisible VLs for the defense as well as offense. This way the designer can set areas to be defended without giving them away with a big flag. When combined with the attacker's dynamic flags this will give the realistic probability of both sides fighting the same battle with different goals. Happens all the time.

[Stalin's Organ]

Originally posted by Strontium Dog:

Camels and Peter O'Toole!

Wrong war! Go play Medieval Total War for camels!

[Andreas]

Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq):

I always thought you mountain troops were strange. Mules Andreas?

Then and now. Check this out.

For German-speakers, here is the homepage of Gebirgsjägerbrigade 23 of the Bundeswehr.

[Nippy]

Small changes. Well, I have a few I'd like to see.

- Different TRPs. How about two different types of TRPs? One for bore sighting guns and ones for off map arty alone. The ones for off map arty should be more expensive while the ones for things like AT guns and the like would be much cheaper. A defender can get a bit "gamey" by buying huge amounts of conscript spotters and lots of cheap TRPs as even the most inept spotter can call in stikes on a TRP in a minute flat.

- Split Squad link lines. Just like command lines to show who belings to who. I'm playing a PBEM game right now where a split platoon got hit with a heavy arty barrage and now they are all over the place. It gets a bit confusing trying to match them all up again.

- New Models for arty spotters. For wire spotters just put a huge spool of wire on their back. For radio spotters put a radio. This would help the player to be able to select his spotters when they are in a large crowd of friendly troops.

- Withdrawl forces Command. A new "Ceasefire" option that only requires one side to click it and end the battle. Any units not in your setup zone are considered captured and VL points go the other side, but you don't have the massive point loss like you do when you hit the "Surrender" button and all your troops are captured. This would be real nice in attack operations where 10 turns into a 30 turn battle you realize you need to wait for reenforcments, but don't what to have to mindlessly mash the go button for the next 20 turns.

- Force Button command for tanks. Back to the PBEM game I mentioned earlier. I have a few tanks near some woods where a sniper is lurking about. Every turn I order the tanks to button up and every action sequence the proceed to unbutton.

- New Terrain for map editor "Foot bridge". It can't hold Tanks or jeeps, but infantry and support weapons can cross it. Not every bridge in Europe and Italy could hold a KT.

- New Terrain for map editor "Gun House" A regular house (of any type) that has been reenforced with sandbags at the like by the defenders. I'm not sure if you would even need any kind of changes of the house images, just make them more resiliant than regular houses and give units inside more of a cover bonus. I remember these being featured in "Across the Rhine".

- Let the player choose ammo loads. I know this can't be done for all units, in fact I only want it for one. On map mortars. After playing CMBB and the horrid wait times on early war Soviet arty I came to rely on on map mortars for laucnhing smoke to cover my attacks. Only problem was some time you had lots of smoke rounds, a few, or none at all. To work around the game engine limitations, just do something like this:

81mm Mortar (HE loadout)

81mm Mortar (Smoke loadout)

[MAsta_KFC]

1. Have an option to enable/disable the random 10% +/- skill level in CMBB.

2. Have an option to enforce unlimited/normal/strict ammo limits for normal infantry squad weapons.

3. Infantry rarity implemented.

4. More than two player multiplayer and cooperative MP options for operations/battles.