Battleling KV1 in 1942 on open ground

[dickesKind]

Hello everybody,

The last few games of CM:BB against a friend where a very frustrating experience for me.

The scenario:

- Quick battle

- allied attack

- 1000 points

- July 1942

- southern Front

- normal rarity

- farm land, with my small hills and little vegetation

What happens now is, that he enters the battlefield with six KV1, about 4-6 T60, sometimes one, two 76mm field guns and infantry not realy worth to mention.

What happens now is nearly always the same. His light tanks as scouts, advance under the eyes of the securing KV1, revealing my hidden trenches and fox holes, which the KVs take instantly under fire with there guns. After 2-3 rounds the troops are in panic or broken, running away and he "takes care" of the next trench. While this happens, his infantry andvances.

So my problems are that I cannot take out his scouts whithout uncovering the positions of my AT guns, or my tanks/assault guns. If I do this, they are instantly dead, killed by those KVs (dammit, I was always under the impression that they are not able to fire accurate over longer distances). I could spend some money in cheaper AT guns, like those PaK 36. Ok, so I would be able to take out one, maybe two scout tanks under the sure loss of these guns. But now I face the next problem: What to do with those KVs? 88mm? To expensive. StuGs? No chance on these distances (always about 600-700 meters). Same with 76mm PaK or PaK 40. For a kill they need to be in a range under 500 meters. And even then the kill is not sure.

So what can I do? I have nothing to take him out, but he can kill everything I can bring on the battlefield.

Has anyone ideas or a hint? Or do I just have to accept this?

I am sure, on any other terrain, with more woods and hills, my chances would be better. But this scenario realy makes me cry

Greetings...

PS: What would just happen to me if I would meet KVs in 1941 :eek:

[Other Means]

I'd play someone else.

No?

OK, take light AT guns & light flak guns together with your normal MG's etc. Use the MG's to keep the infantry off so he brings his T60's close. Kill these with your light AT - do a few experiments on what's the lightest one you can get away with. He'll have to bring the KV's closer to try take the guns out or simply force the issue.

You can immobilise these with the light flak (I did 3 Tigers in one match with a 20mm British flack gun - good times) or just let him advance and kill with infantry assault. Really, without infantry they are blind.

Stuka's do a good job too.

The main thing though is to have a reverse slope defence. Don't try to have a continuous line of infantry, just defend on the backwards slope of hills that can't be seen from the front of the map.

If he can't see you, he can't kill you.

Honestly, the situation you're in isn't such a bad one. At least you have guns that will kill him from the front. Try playing Soviet when the Germans get Tigers. Or insist the next game be in that timeframe and get some revenge as the Germans.

[Broompatrol]

It seems that it is a scenario with everything cherry picked in his favor. There are different rules some people go by to ensure fairer play. See: http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=002173

and check out Kettler's post.

If your friend is so confident see if he'll play the same scenario with you as the allies.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

The solution is easy:

Get another opponent. If he's constantly using the same side and setting you are missing out on fun battles with someone else.

Failing the above, you really should be able to get along with Pak40s. They are deadly versus KVs, not sure why you aren't getting satisfactory results from them. Don't take just 75s though, get something cheap to do in the T-60s. Or get the ability to throw a decent smokescreen and get in amongst his tanks with PzIIIs.

[JasonC]

To kill his scout tanks without giving his KVs anything to chew on - 28mm sPzB. Fire beyond 200m, he will only get sound. High ammo, all of it AP, easily penetrate the thin stuff. Actually dangerous even to the KVs at close range and with a flank, but that wouldn't be the point.

To kill his KVs - why kill them when you can skulk? Avoid giving them LOS. Infantry and tank hunters in reverse slope positions and woods interiors, behind buildings rather than at the front windows, etc. Make him crawl right on top of you with the KVs themselves to find anybody, while your stealthy stuff handles his light tanks and his weak infantry.

AT mines, pioneers with DCs and FTs, all on short arcs (30m maximum). If he stands off you keep the flags, if he comes on in, you torch things for every 6 men you reveal - and occasionally without (mines). Don't take trenches, or take only a couple and put them 150-200m behind your main position, holding HMGs or light flak, not infantry or major PAK. Those can fire at medium range without giving more than a sound contact.

Another weapon to hurt light armor and infantry without revealing itself at longer ranges - the 20mm quad flak, towed, positioned in a woods or pine tile and roughly 8-10m inside at least. The "pick up" range will be under 400m and frequently not until more like 250m. HMGs can fire without being spotted, up to 250m away as well. FOs and on-map 81mm mortars from full defilade (HQ spotter) also have no signature for him to bite on. The mortars are a particularly good counter for his towed guns - as it avoiding spots he has good LOS to from his start line.

A strafing-only fighter bomber with cannon armament will kill his light tanks assymmetrically, just like the sPzB. And when they don't carry bombs they are dirt cheap. A veteran or crack sniper or two is a fine investment and will probably cap several commanders, and even if they don't will keep his infantry and teams pinned at range without revealing themselves.

Fight in terrain conditions that are not purely open and good weather, and he will have problems with bogging or finding routes for his tanks. Block available routes with AT mines and pioneer ambushes, creating a secure portion of the map, while conceding other areas. Avoid positions he can get LOS to without entering that portion, covering other areas only with ranged fire by the above "stealthy" weapons.

To actually kill KVs, the weapon of choice in that era is a PAK 40. The key to killing one and surviving is to isolate on just one of them, by first picking a spot that does not have LOS to the entire map, and then waiting for the time to open fire until one and only one enemy KV is in range. Button him up with MG, AA, sniper, or sPzB fire before letting fly with the PAK 40.

One PAK 40 is readily avoided after the first kill, but 2 that cross their narrow LOS "searchlight beam" covered arcs, are not. Avoiding the first puts a tank across the LOS of the second, and after 2 are KOed, he still has to use mortars or something to take one out to create a new way forward.

A single 75mm ATG pillbox can also work for this - put it in a woods tile to avoid being spotted prematurely, and then open fire with 2-3 KVs in LOS, preferably with the range relatively long. This creates a different threat from the previous idea, and costs about the same. Use only one or the other in a given battle, but mix it up from fight to fight, which you try.

Obviously once 30+50mm front StuGs become available, his idea simply doesn't work at all. But German players should have to put up with a bit of KV happy Russians in 1942, given how much Russians have had to put up with Tiger happy Germans in 1943. (You can always offer your habitual opponent that you will take fewer Tigers and thick front StuGs in 1943 if he agrees to only occasionally use KVs in 1942).

Other weapons that are effective against KVs, but harder to use than the above tactics, are the 37mm Flak used from medium range. It can get immobilizations and gun damage results from its high accuracy and rate of fire, after first smacking a lot of his scout tanks - but is much easier to spot at range than the Quad 20mm or the 28mm sPzB. These really need a long map to work properly, but can be part of the a solution in open steppe terrain with a large point size fight (where pioneers would not work).

Marders can trade 1 for 1 for more expensive KVs by using a keyhole or reverse slope to take them on one at a time as they "crest" - but German armor point budgets tend to be limited, making this less than a panacea.

150mm sIGs can also kill them with HC rounds and damage or force abandonment with HE near misses, but will be spotted as soon as they fire and have a low ROF themselves, making them marginal at it, particularly against many of them in the same fight. They do clobber infantry if they live, though, and they are cheaper than PAK 40. Use from a closer range since the inherent accuracy is low (under 500m).

What you don't do is take a bunch of 50mm PAK - too weak to hurt him seriously but big enough they are spotted as soon as they fire - and inferior, underarmed tanks - and ordinary infantry - and stand in the open (including trenches or cover, I just mean everyone in LOS) trying to slug it out with him. Don't use an "open" defense like that. Instead, everything is stealth first - make him work hard for a single full ID.

[Snowbart]

Good stuff JasonC...

[Joachim]

a) Put bonus HQs near your guns.

use guns in trenches behind small rises or walls so hiding guns are out of LOS. Use covered arcs so these guns do not unhide. Only area fire will keep his tanks focussed on the guns (gamey to some people, but 6 KVs is gamey, too - in '41 Soviet heavy tanks did not fight concentrated)

c) create kill sacks. have mutually supporting positions that force him to expose a flank to one gun if he faces the other.

d) Remember you don't need to defend near the flags. One TH team late in the game is enough if you can block the way towards the flags.

Gruß

Joachim

[Sergei]

The simple solution is to get a rifle, camp outside your opponent's house and kill him. Then claim victory.

[British Tommy]

Originally posted by Sergei:

The simple solution is to get a rifle, camp outside your opponent's house and kill him. Then claim victory.

Remind me never to play against you! :eek:

[stoat]

Originally posted by British Tommy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sergei:

The simple solution is to get a rifle, camp outside your opponent's house and kill him. Then claim victory.

Remind me never to play against you! :eek: </font>

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by Joachim:

use guns in trenches behind small rises or walls so hiding guns are out of LOS. Use covered arcs so these guns do not unhide. Only area fire will keep his tanks focussed on the guns (gamey to some people, but 6 KVs is gamey, too - in '41 Soviet heavy tanks did not fight concentrated)

they certainly fought in groups like this tho, and German tactics often striped infantry from thetanks - it was somethgin they tried to do for teh whole war, and soviet orders are constantly harping on about how to stop it happening.

So facing a group of tanks like this should not be considered as outside teh realms of possibilty!

However as others have noted, with only a little infantry he's going to have visibility problems...don't forget smoke too.....

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Stalin's Organist:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joachim:

use guns in trenches behind small rises or walls so hiding guns are out of LOS. Use covered arcs so these guns do not unhide. Only area fire will keep his tanks focussed on the guns (gamey to some people, but 6 KVs is gamey, too - in '41 Soviet heavy tanks did not fight concentrated)

they certainly fought in groups like this tho</font>

[dickesKind]

Hello everybody,

thanks for your answers!

To have make two things clear:

1. Its not always the same map. Only the quick battle settings are the same

2. Its not that my opponent had chosen these settings to give himself some good "conditions".

Its that we looked for a realistic "summer '42" scenario and took these settings. After he whiped me off from the map a few times its not the case that I am insisting on playing these settings, because I just want to fight a way to beat him and his tactic.

You all posted some very interesting tactics. But as I see now there seems to be no standard tactic against KVs on open ground.

The main problem with these scenario setting is, that all the enemy tanks can cover each other. It is no possible to isolate one of them and take him out.

Tank hunter teams are normaly deadly against KVs. But where to hide them on open ground and bring them next to the tanks? I real problem is, that in an attack scenario every unit gets a fox hole. These holes are easy to be seen. So you would have to get out of these holes with you tank hunters at the beginning.

But I think I can create a mix of your hints, that could perform better then anything I tried until now. I’ll let you know

Greetings…

[JasonC]

d K - not really listening or trying it yet, it appears to me.

You don't have to take the foxhole. The "dig in" item on the unit menu at set up is a toggle, and you can turn it off. It only defaults to having one.

A PAK 40 in woods or a trench is still heavily favored against a KV, while costing less. I regularly KO 2 apiece with them, simply by selecting the time to open fire correctly. You don't need to worry about it being forced prematurely by scout tanks, if you use 28mm and light Flak and cannon armed planes correctly.

Terrain in which everyone covers literally everyone else at all times isn't terrain, it is a billiard table, and no that isn't realistic. Even rural open gentle slopes have enough elevation changes and scattered tree patches to make it work. If ranges are long, you'd take more stealthy ranged shooters and fewer infantry AT, that is all.

I ran a fight like this vs. the AI after your post, but I cut the size by 1/3rd to make it go faster. That makes it somewhat harder on the attacker, of course, and it was the AI. But with a force of 1 PAK 40, 1 28mm sPzB, 1 pioneer platoon, 1 HMG-42, and 1 tank hunter, I beat a force of 2 KV-1s, 2 T-60s, an SMG platoon, 1 76mm towed gun with jeep, 2 Maxim MMGs, 1 82mm mortar, and 1 ATR.

One T-60 made it to the end, though he was 5m beyond range of the still unspotted tank hunter and about to fall, when low ammo for me brought auto cease fire. The hard bit was fighting the SMGs in a body of scattered trees without running out of ammo. The PAK 40 killed both KVs despite missing its first 2 shots, when the initial hit chance read 70%. It then got one T-60 as well, before the 76mm towed took it out.

The HMG was enough to pin that gun repeatedly - it got off a few minutes of HE fire, only. It also messed up the 82mm mortar without it getting shots off, helped in the main firefight, etc. It was never spotted, in response. (It was in a trench on a small rise near the back of the map, and next to the PAK 40).

The 28mm was spotted too soon because it had to open fire inside 400m, due to the small size of the 1/3rd force map. It still holed a T-60 several times, but failed to kill it due to poor behind armor effect. This just needed 100-150m more range, and the force mix worked even after it failed.

The pioneers burned infantry with FTs, were a bit reluctant to use their DCs, but still clobbered the attacking infantry. While those had some overwatch they got one SMG squad close enough in good enough morale to wipe out one 6 man pioneer team. But it was broken in turn by a thrown DC and all the rest of the infantry fighting was relatively easy.

I had only one sizable patch of scattered trees to work with (80 by 140m perhaps), near a few smaller ones. A human might have made better use of HE area fire against that position, but then a bigger fight would have more positions for him to guess among, etc.

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by Joachim:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Stalin's Organist:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joachim:

use guns in trenches behind small rises or walls so hiding guns are out of LOS. Use covered arcs so these guns do not unhide. Only area fire will keep his tanks focussed on the guns (gamey to some people, but 6 KVs is gamey, too - in '41 Soviet heavy tanks did not fight concentrated)

they certainly fought in groups like this tho</font>

[Hensworth]

Not mentioned yet : use snipers to kill his TCs.

4 to 5 snipers will button all his tanks up, permanently. Aside from the absolute gains you will get from this (he will have a much tougher time finding you), it tends to have an effect on the morale of your opponent, not the in-game pixeltruppen percentage but the real world morale of the guy you're playing. People often underestimate this. See right now he's got you under the kosh, he's got you convinced you're stuck for options. But actually he's relying on repeating the same trick over and over again. Once you manage to bowl him out of his comfort zone he will likely come unstuck.

When playing in the open you have to use reverse slope to stay hidden. Trenches and foxholes dug in plain view will be spotted from hundreds of meters away. If available, use brush and high steppe grass to stay hidden just that little bit longer. Consider putting your guns on hillcrests to make them hard to hit for enemy tanks.

[Broompatrol]

I tried a full size scenario with the parameters you described. As It worked out for me, in order to buy that many tanks for the allies all but 1 or 2 of the tanks is conscript.

For the axis I purchased 37mm X2, one quad flak one PAK40 75mm. Three platoons inf, 2 snipers, 2 hmgs 42, strafing aircraft, 3 AT mines, 81mm FO and 2 trenches.

The snipers and mgs kept his tanks buttoned the whole game. The 37mm and the quad flak, easily stopped the t-60s. The KVs had trouble spotting the 37mm at first but even after they did they had trouble hitting them. the smaller guns caused immobilizations and abandonments mostly. The PAK 40 only came into play once, KOing a KV. The quad was never spotted. Between the QUAD, the FO and the HMGS the infantry weren't really a factor. The snipers were also handy for pinning the towed 76mm guns. I only lost one 37mm in a duel with a 76 gun.

I did have some luck as there was a copse of trees in the center that prevented the whole map from spotting my PAK40 when it opened fire from the back but other than that, his tanks tried to mass their fire but had trouble spotting and hitting my guns. His infantry spent most of its time pinned or panicking. The few hardy souls that got too close were razed by my platoons and sent packing. Ironcially by the time my aircraft showed the only targets left were infantry.

Yes, I beat the AI! Seriously though, the scenarios seems winnable, especially with the poor quality of his troops and the lack of any meaningful infantry. It seems to me it would be harder if he had less tanks a few mortars and more infantry.

[JasonC]

I don't think the Russian tanks have to be low quality, actually. 1000 points plus attack odds means the Russians actually have 1500 points to play with.

If they have an armor or unrestricted force type, they can readily afford 6 KVs, 6 T-60s, and still have a full SMG company of infantry, a 120mm FO, 2 towed 76mm and jeeps to move them, and infantry heavy weapons in the form of 4 MMGs, 2 82mm, and a few ATRs.

If they are restricted to a combined arms force type but have a mech parent unit, they can take 4 KVs, 5 T-60s, an SMG company plus a pioneer company, towed 76mm and 37mm AA (or 2 of either), a prime mover, similar heavy weapons, and 2 120mm FOs. All with regular quality.

This is marginally fewer KVs than described in the original post, in the combined arms force type case only, but entirely robust in combined arms terms, and should have no difficulty KOing a single heavy PAK and all the Flak they can manage to spot.

[The_Enigma]

Am never too good when away from the game and attempting to create an OOB and the price it will cost you but...

I have recently had great sucess over KV tanks with those little Marders you get packing the Soviet AT gun.

It was in a scenario i had two of them and nailed myself at least 2 KV tanks with them (cant remember if i got more, allot of tanks died in that battle )

Another option if you were to be playing tank heavy could be to go with Panzer IV (shorts), there HE ammo can disable the KV tanks and knock them out from my experiance (seemed to me it was allot more effective then any other gun during that period other then the Marders one and the 88).

Although this does require a few of them and quite a number of HE rounds last time i tried it.

(i should state i only did this in a few SP games and havnt actaully tried it agaisnt another person but the theroy works )

But anyhoo just some thoughts which you may wanna try out in SP or something to see if you can work with it before going into MP...

[ July 30, 2007, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: The_Enigma ]

[JasonC]

Marder yes, Pz IV no.

[The_Enigma]

Its very much possible, but i would have a play around attempting it first before seeing if you could also pull off agaisnt someone else.

[Cornelius Quilty]

Actually DickesKind was atacked by 4 KV's; 6 T 60's; 4 Zis 3's; 2 Jeeps; 2 Companies of cheap infantry; 2 Snipers; 1 AT team and 1 Flamethrower when playing vs. combined arms and mech parent division.

[RockinHarry]

The small crew russian tanks are quite sensible vs. enemy snipers! Lay sniper ambushes and take out as many tank commanders (who oftenly serve also as gunners for their coffin) as possible in a single game turn! Once you got a number of the tank commanders (enemy tank stays immobile and possibly not shooting during next 1-2 turns due to "shock") and all enemy tanks are buttoned up, you can start with the regular AT fire. This gives any defending AT guns a better survival chance and more opportunities to shoot without beeing discovered. Same for small tank hunter parties who have better chances to sneak and paste some grenade bundles or close assaulting infantry.

[highliner]

I am up against KVs in the next battle "Blitzkrieg op /battle 3" so glad i popped into the forum ,

[Broompatrol]

Hmmm....Not sure where I screwed up..That makes the defense a little trickier

Originally posted by JasonC:

I don't think the Russian tanks have to be low quality, actually. 1000 points plus attack odds means the Russians actually have 1500 points to play with.

If they have an armor or unrestricted force type, they can readily afford 6 KVs, 6 T-60s, and still have a full SMG company of infantry, a 120mm FO, 2 towed 76mm and jeeps to move them, and infantry heavy weapons in the form of 4 MMGs, 2 82mm, and a few ATRs.

If they are restricted to a combined arms force type but have a mech parent unit, they can take 4 KVs, 5 T-60s, an SMG company plus a pioneer company, towed 76mm and 37mm AA (or 2 of either), a prime mover, similar heavy weapons, and 2 120mm FOs. All with regular quality.

This is marginally fewer KVs than described in the original post, in the combined arms force type case only, but entirely robust in combined arms terms, and should have no difficulty KOing a single heavy PAK and all the Flak they can manage to spot.