legend42 Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 I recently had a panther bog and be immobile in warm sunny dry conditions in steppe,another panther bogged but freed itself,what would cause this?I thought all bogging occured in wet/muddy conditions.The panthers were traveling at fast speed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 You always have a chance to bog. It not only represents getting stuck but also mechanical breakdown. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadgerDog Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq): You always have a chance to bog. It not only represents getting stuck but also mechanical breakdown. That's interesting, I didn't know that ..... Maybe that explains why I had a Half Track "bog" immobile on flat open terrain on a sunny dry day. It might have been a "breakdown", but it would be nice if the software at least gave a message to delineate this so I can beat on the "B" Echelon mechanics. It couldn't be any worse then the Centurion tank where we often joked about 4 hours of maintenance for 1 hour of driving, just to keep the critter serviceable. Regards, Badger 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tar Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 I don't think the software differentiates between bogging per se and mechanical breakdown. It is just that the chances of this happening take both into account. That would make it difficult to generate a useful message. Some things like this are just abstracted. Now, whatever happened to the results of tests that seemed to show that going fast was better than slow in regard to bogging. IIRC, the result was that although you had a higher chance of bogging per unit time at fast speed, you also moved further. And the chance of bogging didn't go up as much as your speed. That meant that over a fixed distance you were more likely to bog down driving slowly (since it takes longer). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
engy Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq): but also mechanical breakdown. :confused: Just to add one more opinion to the mix, but I thought (and was fairly sure until I read the above) that mechanical breakdown was not simulated. Previously, it had been called "outside the scope of CM", i.e. the mechanical breakdowns would change the number of tanks that you had available for the battle, but CMBO/BB was not going to model breakdowns during the battle. IIRC, the ground pressure value, plus terrain and movement speed, are the only influences on bogging, and the vehicles do not have an extra rating for mechanical reliability. However, having said all that, I don't have the manual in front of me, so this is only my opinion, and I'm quite willing to be corrected. Does anybody have a quote from the manual, or an old thread that would settle this? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wadepm Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 I don't have the manual or a link to the other thread but I do have my prodigious memory. What I think BFC said was that the recovery/repair of vehicles was not covered within the scope of CM. I think bodding/breakdowns are lumped together as stated by previously. [ May 22, 2003, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: wadepm ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
engy Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Ok, since everyone else seems to be just as lazy as I am, I did some digging. I searched the CMBB forum on "mechanical breakdown". Something like 10 threads show up, but this one is the most important, because it has a comment by Moon. Besides what Zarquon mentioned above, if something like this was to happen, it might seriously unbalance a game by sheer chance. Combine these two (chance and game balance issues) we decided to leave it [mechanical breakdown probability] out. One can of course always simulate breakdowns by stripping platoons of one vehicle etc. in a battle. Martin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 There is always a chance of 'bogging' - even if it's very low. Not only that, but 'fast' move increases the chances of bogging by a significant amount. Furthermore, don't think of bogging as getting stuck in mud. Tanks have a propensity to get stuck in steppe. I think of it as having a high number of weasels jammed in the running gear. More weasels in steppe, you see. Engy is absolutely right (AFAICR) about mechanical breakdown being left out. Otherwise there's a good chance that King Tiger you paid 350 points for wouldn't make it onto the battlefield. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-E Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 I play the Germans. I am against Panthers bogging in any circumstance. Please fix or do somefink. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP Jones Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 I had a 251/1 halftrack bog on a paved road on a clear dry day. What possibility to bog on a PAVED road is there???? I could not believe it was really bogged. I thought it must represent a mechanical failure, but if that is not possible, then what the hell???? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Originally posted by JP Jones: I had a 251/1 halftrack bog on a paved road on a clear dry day. What possibility to bog on a PAVED road is there???? I could not believe it was really bogged. I thought it must represent a mechanical failure, but if that is not possible, then what the hell???? Despite what has been said about not representing mechanical failures I have always understood bogging to include, not only getting stuck in mud, but getting tracks fouled or even thrown. Thus the H/T bogged on a road could represent a broken or damaged track. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Keep in mind that the game engine just can't show all the stuff you'd encounter in a WW2 battlefield such as bad pavement, debris or ninja cows. So maybe, despite the pavement, your vehicle just happened to break some of the pavement and got stuck or had to stop to avoid a collision. Like if Jürgen hears some strange noise and the steering is pulling to the left. He stops to see if something is broken, but sees that there's just a two metre piece of cable entangled to the left track. He takes it off and continues. Dunno, that kind of things would happen in real conditions but it just would be far too complicated to model them 1:1 in the game. Would do probably just fine if the chance to bog on paved road was nil, since the chance is so low (or at least I haven't seen it happen). I would understand a track being thrown or broken only if the vehicle then becomes Immobile. You can't fix a broken track in two minutes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 ...or then, Jürgen sees a hedgehog crawling across the road in front, and so he steps onto the break. "AAAAAAAACH!!!" yells Manfred sitting next to him, after spilling half a cup of superhot substitute coffee onto his lap. They stop for Manfred to take off his pants and revive his organ. And you know what happened if it gets IMMOBILE. At least that's how I interpret those messages, dunno about you guys though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP Jones Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 I would like to know once and for all, by someone who REALLY DOES know (cite your source) if the game models mechanical failures as immobilized, or just bogging and battle damage??? Enquiring minds want to know. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
engy Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Originally posted by JP Jones: I would like to know once and for all, by someone who REALLY DOES know (cite your source) if the game models mechanical failures as immobilized, or just bogging and battle damage??? Enquiring minds want to know. I'm sorry if the following sounds terribly grumpy, but it's early and I haven't had my coffee yet, so I have an excuse... Did you bother to read what I posted above...both the quote from Moon, and the entire thread I referenced? Do you think that Moon doesn't "REALLY KNOW" what is going on in the game? What source can you suggest that would be better than one of the employees at BF.C? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 I find this very interesting I think it is correct that BFC have always said that mechanical breakdowns in combat and within a scenario are NOT modeled... BUT what is that funky gear crunching sound the KT makes when it grinds to a halt in CMBO? :confused: I don't play the germans much and I have never heard it BUT there is a gear grinding sound file in CMBO that only the KT makes and then it becomes immobile as I understand it. I think it is correct to state that the guys that designed the game always claimed that bogging and immobolization have nothing to do with mechanical breakdown but for those of us who play the game a break down sometimes seems like the ONLY way the vehicle could have become immobile so as a player it seems logical to jump to the conclusion the mechanical breakdown occured. IMHO -tom w 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 In a recent thread about bogging Steve said Yes, "bogging" is meant to cover throwing a track or otherwise having something go wrong with the mobility of the vehicle. This could simply be a build up of brush in the drive sprocket as much as it could be sinking in mud. From that statement I'd assume that a certain amount of mechanical breakdown is modeled. So long as that mechanical breakdown has been the result of some type of impact of terrain on the vehicle 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP Jones Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 "Did you bother to read what I posted above...both the quote from Moon, and the entire thread I referenced? Do you think that Moon doesn't "REALLY KNOW" what is going on in the game? What source can you suggest that would be better than one of the employees at BF.C?" ----------------------------------------------- Lighten up Francis. Of course I read what was above, but no, I didn't read the other thread since it seemed you already pulled out a quote, I took that as the most important/relevent part (assuming that is why you quoted it). I didn't realize that the "Moon" quoted was a BFC employee, the quote doesn't mention that. So since I don't know the Moon from the stars, I wanted to know the final answer from a reliable source. I never would have said that one of their employees doesn't know what is going on. They are an outstanding company. Now, go have your coffee next time before you try to lecture me like a child. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Originally posted by JP Jones: "Did you bother to read what I posted above...both the quote from Moon, and the entire thread I referenced? Do you think that Moon doesn't "REALLY KNOW" what is going on in the game? What source can you suggest that would be better than one of the employees at BF.C?" ----------------------------------------------- Lighten up Francis. Of course I read what was above, but no, I didn't read the other thread since it seemed you already pulled out a quote, I took that as the most important/relevent part (assuming that is why you quoted it). I didn't realize that the "Moon" quoted was a BFC employee, the quote doesn't mention that. So since I don't know the Moon from the stars, I wanted to know the final answer from a reliable source. I never would have said that one of their employees doesn't know what is going on. They are an outstanding company. Now, go have your coffee next time before you try to lecture me like a child. And if you read my last post another BFC employee said something different.................I swear it's all some sort of conspiracy to confuse us all 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP Jones Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 And if you read my last post another BFC employee said something different.................I swear it's all some sort of conspiracy to confuse us all Good point. So I guess I restate my request for a final answer from whoever may be the ultimate power in charge of the game. I still love the game, I just want to know. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Well my theory is this (and it is only my theory so I could be wrong): If a tank is happily driving down a clear and unobstructed road then, in real life, it still has a chance of becoming immobilised due to mechanical failure. Maybe a burnt out clutch, a broken engine piston, or even just a failure in the electrics etc. This essentially has nothing to do with terrain and is instead more of a function of inherant reliability of the vehicle. In CM this is not modelled, therefore BFC have not looked at different reliability data for different vehicles. In that sense you could say that mechanical breakdown is not modelled in this game. On the other hand if the same tank was driving down a road that was scattered with rubble and maybe even the odd tree branch, then there is a chance of it becoming immobile due to foreign object damage of the running gear. You could say that having a track thrown due to driving over rubble could count as a mechanical failure, however, as this is the result of external terrain effects on the vehicle, and essentially has nothing to do with the mechanical reliability of the vehicle itself then you'd probably not count it as such. In essence the only thing that will bog/immobilise a vehicle in CM is the effect of terrain. but that will cover a multitude of things from sinking into the mud on a wet October Russian steppe to driving over a tree branch and getting it stuck in the tracks. Bear in mind though that CM does not calculate all this exactly and only gives an approximation of all this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
engy Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Originally posted by Ant: Well my theory is this...Very, very well stated. Your theory takes into account both the strange results of the test cases (bogging on pavement) and the confusion of the "contradictory" answers by BF.C. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
engy Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Originally posted by JP Jones: I didn't realize that the "Moon" quoted was a BFC employee, the quote doesn't mention that.I apologize. It seemed at the time that you chose to willfully ignore what had already been posted. I see now that it wasn't the case. My response was too harsh. Kind regards, engy 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Mechanical reliability isn't modelled, i.e. there is no difference in the chance to bog between various models of tanks or vehicles (even if they were known to be especially prone to mechanical breakdown, e.g. the early Panther models). The only factors figuring in are ground pressure, ground conditions and speed. The faster you go, the higher the chance for bogging. Somebody mentioned that going faster is better because you cover more ground in the same time as a slower moving vehicle - well, this isn't the case. The chance to bog depends on DISTANCE, not TIME, travelled. Charles had foreseen this little "cheat" while coding the game. Now, one thing though - while mechanical reliability isn't modelled in detail, even on paved ground (read: on ANY ground in ANY situation) there always remains a tiny chance for bogging. Bogging does not always represent digging into soft ground, but a host of other incidents. Potholes on roads, even stones getting into the threads or just a bad link on the tracks - and so on. So in a way, one could say that bogging does represent that occasional technical failure if you want to think about it like that. Martin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonm Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Originally posted by BadgerDog: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq): You always have a chance to bog. It not only represents getting stuck but also mechanical breakdown. That's interesting, I didn't know that ..... [snip] It couldn't be any worse then the Centurion tank where we often joked about 4 hours of maintenance for 1 hour of driving, just to keep the critter serviceable. Regards, Badger </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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