What’s it like to get hit in a tank?

[Ace Pilot]

Sounds like a dumb question, but I was wondering if there is anyone that can describe what it is like to be inside a tank when an AP round ricochets off the armor?

What can the crew determine from it?

Ace

[SgtMuhammed]

According to my grandfather it kind of sounded like someone whacking the tank with a sledge and then things just stopped working. He was in an M3 Stuart through Africa and Italy and had one shot out from under him at Kaserine (his description of the battle was, "We were moving out and then there were a couple explosions and a lot of dust and when things settled down his entire company was knocked out."). His tank got hit in the engine. I guess a hit to the turret would be a lot more, ahem, exciting.

Turning the "Way Back" forward we come to Desert Storm an a buddy I served with who was a tanker in the last Iraqi war. He said that he and his crew were buttoned up trying to figure out exactly where they were when he heard a "bong!" and felt the tank shake. Thinking that someone had run into him he popped out to yell at them and noticed a T72 at 500m getting ready to fire again. He screamed at his gunner and they killed the Iraqi. When they looked at the hit they figured it was from a heat round as the steel had been punctured and there was a large blast mark.

Those are the only ones I have personal knowledge of. Accounts I have read tell of the turret of a Sherman being filled with a loud bang and then smoke, burning cherry juice and a mad scramble for the exit.

[Blow2]

Never experienced that, thank God, but I have experienced what it is like to have a tank bang off 120mm rounds right next to you - the entire earth rises about three feet off the ground, every loose pebble and twig, as if someone had hit it with a hammer. The shock goes right through you and, repeatedly, it is totally demoralising. Admittedly this was the Challenger, today's modern tank, but an 88mm or 75mm gun on a Sherman or a Panther couldn't have been much different. Makes me thing there should be a prohbitive rule about placing support tanks right next to infantry and vice versa.

Bolo

[flamingknives]

What can the crew determine from it?

That it's better for the shell to be on the other side of the armour?

The HEAT rounds are supposed to be interesting. Unless the stream of hot gas hits something vital, the crew don't always realise they've been hit, so I'm told.

[-E]

I'm thinking it's only fun for the first few rounds. After that the boredom would set in, causing tank crews to fall asleep. (You'd probably have read more about courts-martials for sleeping on duty if this battle boredom narcoleptic(sp?) phenomenon wasn't so well masked by the battles that caused it)

[SgtMuhammed]

Yeah, after the new wears off it could get pretty passe.

[-E]

It would probably take longer for the new to wear off in a kubelwagon... there is definitely a lack of documented historical cases of battle boredom in them.

[SgtMuhammed]

That's because KW drivers were always in the rear. You know what chick magnets those "Things" were.

[-E]

I knew that was the reason they stopped making the the orange variety. But I didn't know the chicks could spot the camo variety. Perhaps the crew not being asleep in the KW's made them more prone to movement, which the chicks could then easily spot?

[Nurmipora]

In the army i was told you get a pretty good feeling if you put your helmet on and then let your friend hit u with a hammer.

But i dont think you should try that.

[-E]

BTW, did you ever notice the chicks never went for the hardtop versions? (The KW model with the mag wheels and hydraulics)

[SgtMuhammed]

You don't feel the hammer but man your neck hurts.

Getting back to the question: The crew really can't tell a lot just from the sound of a glancing blow. They can tell if they have been hit by something serious as opposed to small arms but not whether or not something is broken. Basically you either hear a big bong or a loud crash and then try to find out what is still working or try to get out as quickly as possible or find out if there is an afterlife.

Just a quick note, most tankers who are killed in battle are burned to death, not something they put in the recruiting posters.

[Lt Bull]

Ace Pilot,

I have consider this myself before but more notably when I visited London's War Museum. There they have quite a few interesting displays that try to create atmosphere with sounds and lights etc.

When I saw the Jagdpanther there with the penetration holes on its side, and partly cutaway superstructure enabling you to peer inside the crew compartment, it got me thinking about a display. You could set up a display/virtual ride where the public were allowed to get in a tank and occupy all of the crew positions. The tank would perhaps be decked out with hidden speakers which broadcast re-enacted dialogue between of a typical WW2 tank crew engaged in action, perhaps interspersed with radio comm chatter with other units, engine sounds, the tank's own MG and main gun fire. Perhaps even the tank could be mounted on hydraulic jacks which simulate movement like one of those virtual rollercoaster rides and a film projected such that occupants looking outside the vision slots of the tank could see action unfolding around them.

Anyway, the ride would culminate in something like an ambush by say an AT-gun. This is where the effect of a ricochet could be simulated. It would be possible to calculate the type of inertia carried by say a 75mm or 50mm AT gun round. This could be converted to a pendulum like device or piston fired pin that would impact the side of the tank at a particular location at an appropriate speed. Not only would the occupants HEAR the sound of impact, but they will also FEEL the tank absorb the inertia of the projectile. Perhaps something like MG fire impacting the tank could also be realistically simulated somehow.

The virtual tank ride would of course be not suitable for the feint of heart (in the same way as rollercoasters) and would involve sudden loud noises and movements. However, it would be the best way to translate I guess the terror and claustrophobic feeling experienced by those brave tankers for whom none of what they entered into was for fun.

Too hardcore a simulation? It definitely might make people appreciate more what others before them had gone through and definitely add more to anyones visit to a museum.

Lt Bull

[SgtMuhammed]

The I.W.M. has got to be one of the best museums in the world. I love that FW190 they have hanging up there, a really beautiful aircraft.

[-E]

Originally posted by Sgtgoody:

a big bong

That's not right. They shouldn't be doing that in the military.

[Eden Smallwood]

My brother asked me how I expected to take out a tank with a flamethrower; his expectation was that if an FT were to fire at a tank, the tank crew would be lucky to even notice, perhaps they might hear a whooshing noise and wonder what it was.

I had no answer, since I don't know, which seems like a good reason to ask y'all. Hopefully it's pretty close to the topic:

What does a FT do to a tank? Is it only the engine which gets fried, or does the crew experience nasty amounts of heat also?

Eden

[SFJaykey]

Re: tanks struck by non-penetrating rounds, this from an interview with Dmitriy Loza, who commanded mostly lend-lease Shermans during the war:

"Did the crew receive a concussion when a round hit the tank, even if it did not penetrate the armor?

- Generally, no. It depended on where the round hit. Let's say that I was sitting in the left side of the turret and a round struck near me. I heard this hit but it did not harm me. If it struck somewhere on the hull, I might not hear it at all. This happened several times. We would come out of an engagement and inspect the tank. In several places the armor would show an impact, like a hot knife that had cut through butter. But I did not hear the round impacts. Sometimes the driver would shout, "They're shooting from the left!" But there was no overwhelming sound. Of course, if such a powerful gun as the JSU-152 hit you, you heard it! And it would take off your head along with the turret."

I expect that the excitment of combat, the noise being made by his own tank etc, masked a lot of the impact sounds. This and many other excellent interviews and historical stuff at the Russian Battlefield: www.battlefield.ru

MattT

[Bruno Weiss]

Originally posted by Sgtgoody:

a big bong

--------------------------------------------------

Posted by E:

That's not right. They shouldn't be doing that in the military.

That's the new army of one. They were standard issue in Nam. In a pinch, they could rapidly be convered to a small roach mortar, or a shotgun at close range.

[ February 05, 2003, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Eden Smallwood:

My brother asked me how I expected to take out a tank with a flamethrower; his expectation was that if an FT were to fire at a tank, the tank crew would be lucky to even notice, perhaps they might hear a whooshing noise and wonder what it was.

I had no answer, since I don't know, which seems like a good reason to ask y'all. Hopefully it's pretty close to the topic:

What does a FT do to a tank? Is it only the engine which gets fried, or does the crew experience nasty amounts of heat also?

Eden

I refer the honourable gentleman to PRO document WO 291/1139, "Drop tank incendiary bombs used in the anti-tank role".

This points out that flame is, as your brother correctly surmises, completely ineffective if it just spatters onto the armour.

Flame is effective if it enters the tank through an open driver's hatch, or, less likely, commander's hatch -- it is harder to "loft" the flame rod to the height necesseary to reach the commander's hatch.

If flame can enter through the engine grille, it stands a good chance of immobilising the tank by damaging ignition wires and igniting fan-belts.

Some designs of mantlet, such as that on the Churchill, may admit flame.

I believe, from other reports on the Korean war, that one of the main mechanisms that destroyed T-34s attacked by napalm was the ignition of the rubber running-wheel tires.

All the best,

John.

[ZealotBurner]

Any word on the effects of a flamethrower? Last night in a game I had a german flame thrower empty its ammo at a KV-1 to no effect.

Well the FT died as the freaked from lack of ammo and ran in the open, but no other effect.

I have seen it work in other games versus other armor, so is it a function of armor thickness, shape of vehicle, subsystem placement?

[_Axe_]

I've become friends with a veteran who was a tank commander with the Sherbrooke Fusiliers.

He said he lost three tanks in Normandy: one to a Shreck, one to a mine ("We wondered why it stopped moving") and one to a "damned 88."

It killed the driver and gunner and almost took his lower half off. He has scars running down his things and legs like dry riverbeds and a toe that was smashed to pulp.

The sad thing is he had to fight for years with the Canadian government to get the disability payments he not only was owed, but deserved ten times over.

Cheers,

Jason

[Darknight (DC)]

Originally posted by Axe2121:

I've become friends with a veteran who was a tank commander with the Sherbrooke Fusiliers.

He said he lost three tanks in Normandy: one to a Shreck, one to a mine ("We wondered why it stopped moving") and one to a "damned 88."

It killed the driver and gunner and almost took his lower half off. He has scars running down his things and legs like dry riverbeds and a toe that was smashed to pulp.

The sad thing is he had to fight for years with the Canadian government to get the disability payments he not only was owed, but deserved ten times over.

Cheers,

Jason

My Great Uncle was a Sherman tank driver with the Sherbrooke Fusiliers ("C" Squadron)....he was wounded during the fighting at the Falaise Gap. Unfortunately he passed away recently, so I can't ask him about the experience.

[_Axe_]

Originally posted by Darknight_Canuck:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Axe2121:

I've become friends with a veteran who was a tank commander with the Sherbrooke Fusiliers.

He said he lost three tanks in Normandy: one to a Shreck, one to a mine ("We wondered why it stopped moving") and one to a "damned 88."

It killed the driver and gunner and almost took his lower half off. He has scars running down his things and legs like dry riverbeds and a toe that was smashed to pulp.

The sad thing is he had to fight for years with the Canadian government to get the disability payments he not only was owed, but deserved ten times over.

Cheers,

Jason

My Great Uncle was a Sherman tank driver with the Sherbrooke Fusiliers ("C" Squadron)....he was wounded during the fighting at the Falaise Gap. Unfortunately he passed away recently, so I can't ask him about the experience. </font>

[gunnergoz]

Originally posted by Ace Pilot:

Sounds like a dumb question, but I was wondering if there is anyone that can describe what it is like to be inside a tank when an AP round ricochets off the armor?

What can the crew determine from it?

Ace

Speaking for myself, as I read the question I had a sudden flash of being there in the tank myself, and it went something like this:

(while mumbling prayer for self-salvation...) "...Holy Mary MOTHER OF GOD whatinhellwasthat?"

(The latter would likely be accompanied by squishing sound from suddenly wet tank crew seat.)

That was a very unexpected and powerful moment of fantasy, I tell you...time to go git the Scotch and settle self down.

Thanks for the question, lad, it made my day!

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Sgtgoody:

You don't feel the hammer but man your neck hurts.

Getting back to the question: The crew really can't tell a lot just from the sound of a glancing blow. They can tell if they have been hit by something serious as opposed to small arms but not whether or not something is broken. Basically you either hear a big bong or a loud crash and then try to find out what is still working or try to get out as quickly as possible or find out if there is an afterlife.

Just a quick note, most tankers who are killed in battle are burned to death, not something they put in the recruiting posters.

I note the Sherbrooke Fusiliers are mentioned here - an excellent history of tanks in battle is SOUTH ALBERTAS: A CANADIAN REGIMENT AT WAR by Donald Graves. It's at amazon.com, and you will notice Andreas and myself rated it highly, among others.

One of the stories in it, that I have repeated in the CMBO forum, is the fact that the padre was in at least one instance, along with others, responsible for retrieving crew casualties.

It was learned that crew casualties who could not be retrieved from their tanks, and left to sit for more than a few hours, developed rigor mortis, leaving them in a seated position at their stations.

In order to properly evacuate the remains from the driver's seat of a Sherman tank, for example, it then became necessary for the padre or whomever to take a hatchet or machete (these were commonly issued even in Normandy, not just the jungle) in order to modify the remains in order to evacuate them. In other words, in order to bury the badly burned bodies, they sometimes had to be cut into pieces first, small enough to fit through the hatches.

The Germans went so far as to introduce the idea of metal dog tag chains for armoured crewmen, since it was found that the butcher's twine they issued burned in a tank fire, and all that would be left of the crew would be a pile of metal dogtags on the floor of the tank, with no way of knowing which remains went with which tag. I don't believe they were widely issued, though, perhaps due to lack of materials.