How to overcome early war SMG with German infantry?

[GenSplatton]

Infantry-only early war battles invariably lead to the German player trying to overcome hordes of Soviet SMG squads, especially on a heavily wooded map. How does the German player overcome the immense close-range firepower of these units with nothing of equal firepower on the German side?

[Der Kuenstler]

The best way is to avoid heavily wooded maps - stick with moderate trees setting and fight at ranges of 80-120 meters instead of up close. Try to get the flags first and don't let them get close enough to really hurt you. Use any supplementary HE you have to help break them. You won't win up close against SMG troops - firepower is just too great.

[GenSplatton]

Unfortunately the settings for the game I am getting ready to start is infantry only, heavily wooded and rural. So I need to develop a plan of attack that gives me a chance, any chance. Yes, I realize I accepted settings that put me at a dsiadvantage, but I accept the challenge. Now I just need to find a way to make it competitive. I view it as a chance to try and play a superior game on a tactical level to overcome the inherant disadvantage. If it can't be done however, then I guess I'm screwed!

[Tux]

If it's infantry only then I think you're in for a rough time. If I were in your position I'd set up my men defensively in the best cover available. They should be deep enough into cover that they can only see to the edges of the body of cover ahead of them, but not actually into it (at the back of houses, ~25m into woods, etc.). This way you should be able to ambush the Russian troops and hit them hard as they cross the open ground ahead of your troops, whilst the latter will be immune from direct, targetted overwatch fire from other bodies of cover. You can see a very small example of this tactic working very well in my AAR against Juste on these forums. I was scared of his SMG troops so, where possible, I didn't let them fire at me from anything approaching adequate cover.

Also, as others have mentioned, maximise your combat ranges where possible. You want to be fighting his squads at 150-200m, at which ranges rifles will dominate SMGs every time.

If you have to move forwards do it with half squad scouts first, covered by massive rifle overwatch from 150m back. If you move all your men up together and they uncover an SMG platoon or two they will get beaten back very quickly.

[jtcm]

There was a very good thread on this, maybe 4 years ago, with good contributions by Walpurgis and JasonC. maybe a search ? The title of "How to beat SMGs" vel sim.

[Vark]

Having fought SMG infantry in various QB's the impression I get is that they are far too powerful. Does the game engine work out the firepower of a unit by assuming all soldiers with that weapon fire together? If this is the case and units cannot split their fire power between targets then it might explain their over modelling.

Having said that I talked to a reenactor who had just been training British officers about the Red Army and he was chuffed to bits that he got to fire all the small arms of a Russian 1943 company. His take on things was suprising. The PPSH was reliably accurate out to 200 metres, and the range officer had instructed them to only fire 10 round bursts with the Maxim, as this would prevent the targets being chewed to pieces, this was at 6-800 metres range. I've fired a variety of small arms, mostly modern but have never shot the WWII Soviet variety, any one with any real experience, not WWII first person shooter 'experience'. How does it compare with the games factors?

[jtcm]

This is what I meant

Destroying SMGs

But still, would be good to get the refresher version here:

--HE

--flame

--differential LOS into cover

[GenSplatton]

Thanks for the link jtcm. Checking it out now.

[Yushal]

Engineers backed by FTs, preceded by cheap conscript lmgs and half-squads. Insist upon 40 turns to run out his ammo and give you plenty of sneaky-time.

[JasonC]

First, the conditions are silly. Early war the Germans rely on armor in their force mix, especially attacking. Think Panzer II Flamm as a 1941 SMG countermeasure.

Second, 150mm HE. Does need LOS lines long enough to call missions, or defender TRPs, however, so it won't work with 2 minute engagement times at 30 meters range.

Third, in deep woods you can try pioneers. In scattered trees or broken woods, however, SMGs are superior and rightly so.

Fourth, in more normal terrain, the Germans rely on strong heavy weapons, especially their HMGs but also the mortars, and engage at ranges farther than SMG squads want to fight.

Fifth, later in the war the Germans have their own SMG formations. Finns also have them all along.

Bottom line, though, is if you deliberately agree to conditions that give your opponent an ahistorical edge, he gets an ahistorical edge. Period.

[GenSplatton]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Bottom line, though, is if you deliberately agree to conditions that give your opponent an ahistorical edge, he gets an ahistorical edge. Period.

I won't get in to why I accepted the terms. Let's just accept the fact I did. Now, rather than lament the fact that it may be unfair, I'd rather see how well I can play and how competitive I can be. It's just a game, winning isn't everything.

[JasonC]

Nah, let's just accept the fact that the question is idiotic.

[JasonC]

"How do I charge a company of Tiger Is with a lone T-60?"

"How do I cross a hundred meters of barbed wire with a conscript halfsquad, when it is overwatched by a dozen HMG 42s?"

"How do I protect my 4 precious trucks from a dozen angry Sturmoviks, with a lone light machinegun?"

...

[GenSplatton]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Nah, let's just accept the fact that the question is idiotic.

Wow, are you a dick to everyone or am I just special?

[Yushal]

Lol

Forget it, GenSplatton. Apparently he has forgotten that this forum is for a game. He did attempt to answer you tho:

"Third, in deep woods you can try pioneers. ..."

[Vaunu]

If you need to go close range try to get 2-3 rifle squad vs 1 SMG squad and your chances ain't so bad because of grenades (40 meter to throw grenades) especially if your squads are under "morale" leader as they can take alot more heat from SMG's than normal platoons.

[John Kettler]

GenSplatton,

While you have indeed chosen a tough row to hoe, look on the bright side. The SMG squads you face are relatively ammo limited compared to the ones in CMBO, which carried just as much ammo as their largely rifle based infantry confreres, leading not just to lots of screaming, but negotiations worthy of Panmunjom and the Washington Naval Conference combined to impose some sanity on an infantry type run amok.

Take those rifle squads Vaunu describes and engage from as many directions as possible, especially flanks and rear. Crossfires are your friends. Do not provide a dense target for his SMGs to engage. Instead, be diffuse, agile and displace as needed so he can't close and chew you to pieces, bearing in mind that if you can get him to shoot outside of effective range or while you're in good cover, he burns priceless ammo (has about half of your load), but probably doesn't do damage that's permanent in return. Done correctly, especially against an impetuous foe, his fangs will be pulled ere long, and you'll be calling the martial tune.

OTOH, if you let him get amidst you, you're toast.

Why does an early war Russian formation have so many SMGs? These units were heavily rifle based, as in the footage of troops hurled headlong into battle after being issued a rifle and a handful of cartridges.

Regards,

John Kettler

[GenSplatton]

I can't guarantee it is heavily loaded with SMG squads. However, given the game settings chosen (infantry only, heavy woods, modest hills, rural) I am planning for what I believe to be the most likely eventuality. He likes SMG and fire throwers!

I appreciate the tips and advice. I believe I chose a good mix of units to deal as best I can with the threat after reading what I have here. Now to see if I can out the advice in to practice. I'm well aware that even the best laid plans seldom survive contact with the enemy. I'm about to find out!

Oh, edited to add, thanks for pointing out the ammo disparity. That was something I hadn't thought of/realized. This will help me be patient if I suffer some early losses.

[Tux]

Good luck. Keep us up to date with your progress, won't you?

[Kineas]

Originally posted by GenSplatton:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JasonC:

Nah, let's just accept the fact that the question is idiotic.

Wow, are you a dick to everyone or am I just special? </font>

[GenSplatton]

Originally posted by Kineas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GenSplatton:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JasonC:

Nah, let's just accept the fact that the question is idiotic.

Wow, are you a dick to everyone or am I just special? </font>

[JasonC]

GenSp's problem is that he believes he is the one being addressed, that anyone cares about his particulars. Objective advice is given to a set of circumstances or the parameters of a question. He is irrelevant, his desires are irrelevant, his opinions are irrelevant. Where he went over a line is with that "let's just accept", which is trying to order around his betters. There is no reason to "just accept" anything of the kind, and I don't.

[GenSplatton]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Where he went over a line is with that "let's just accept", which is trying to order around his betters. There is no reason to "just accept" anything of the kind, and I don't.

The settings for the game are what they are. It is a fact. Whether you "accept" it or not does not change the fact in the slightest. As for "betters," that is all that need be said in judging your character. Your arrogance is laughable when considering you are talking about a computer game. Though there is unfortunately no ignore option on this board, consider this my last post that even remotely addresses you. I realize your immature taunts are an attempt to get me upset or angry or some such nonsense. Unfortunately, while that probably normally works with the others of your ilk that you attempt to "troll" in too childish arguments, it really isn't going to be effective here, sorry. So please, feel free to continue to spew whatever bile you'd like. But it would be nice if you could do it in other threads and leave this one to the adults. Thanks.

[JasonC]

So he also doesn't know who he is talking to. But we could guess that.

[Tux]

The fight you intend to participate in, GenSplatton, is historically irrelevant and difficult only for artificial reasons (lack of proper combined arms, possibly being forced to advance in order to capture flag points, etc.). I think JasonC prefers to use CMBB exclusively as a proper war game/ simulation, as far as possible, and so your question has pissed him off. You won't get anywhere by arguing so I think you're probably doing the right thing by ignoring him.

From the instant that you posed your question however, the rest of us have simply decided to to consider CMBB in its game form - something that is perfectly acceptable and enjoyed (at least occasionally) by the vast majority of users. Bearing that in mind, then, you must simply remember that it is very difficult, but not impossible, to overcome SMG infantry with similar numbers of german rifle infantry. See 'Turn 20' and 'Turn 21' here for one example. All you need for this trick to work as many times as you like is a good, well-positioned body of cover, with a stretch of open ground ahead of it, which your men can occupy before they make contact with the SMGs. Obtaining LOS to open ground, and open ground only, from deep within good cover will all but nullify the advantage held by his soldier's armament. If he wants to fire effectively at your troops he must halt his own in open ground. Pack your squads close together so that they can quickly combine to rout an exposed SMG squad and I can't think of anything short of HE fire or massive, ammo-draining area fire orders that will uproot them easily.

How's it going so far?