Tiger headaches

[Sven]

As a twin topic to my other post, and a spinoff on the KV thread, I must ask:

Which Soviet tanks can take out a Tiger? (I'm getting thrashed by a friend as we speak (type) )

[Kingfish]

That depends on many variables. Date, range and battlefield conditions are some to consider.

For instance, if the year is late '42, range is over 2 kms and the map is flat, wide open steppes then the Soviet tanks will experience difficulties, since their inferior 76.2mm guns will only penetrate a Tiger's hide from very close up.

However, if you were to change just one variable, say from flat steppes to rolling terrain w/ patches of scattered trees, then the Soviet's chances improve. Not dramatically, the Tiger will still rule, but now the Soviet can use the terrain to his advantage.

If you were to change the parameters again to late '44 then the Soviet's chances do improve dramatically. Now the majority of Soviet tanks are fielding much more powerful guns, such as the 85mm with Tungsten rounds, or the 122mm equipped ISU tank destroyers.

[Andrew H.]

If rarity doesn't matter, get the SU-100.

[JasonC]

The Russian 76mm does not penetrate the Tiger, from the side, from the rear, at 200m, at 100m, on top of it. In 1944 with T ammo at 100m from a flat side shot, mebe.

If an opponent takes Tigers in 1942 ask him what he is smoking. Tigers are a problem in 1943, realistically so (though lots of things are stacked to make it harder than it actually was).

The realistic weapon of choice is the SU-152. Its AP will kill a Tiger from any range and aspect - though the ridiculous turret front (listed as "100+" but modeled as 200mm) will often bounce one, so a side shot or hull up shot are preferable (in that order). Even the HE can immobilize.

You are fully vulnerable to its replies, though, and have no ROF to speak of. So use shoot and scoot to get off a single round and get back into cover while reloading. Two SU-152s doing this are much better than one, because the hit chance with a single round is too low. A pair have a decent chance of bagging one cleanly. Sometimes you will trade one for one.

After the Tigers are dead, these also do quite a number on German infantry, since direct 152mm HE is truly nasty. Don't let the small ammo load fool you, they really hurt things.

The other realistic weapon of choice is the 57mm towed ATG. It can penetrate the front hull at medium range (600m is safest), and any side aspect shot (800m to 1000m, the flatter the side angle the better). Standard rariety often makes these ridiculously expensive. They were far more common than German Tigers, but suffer in rariety terms because there were lots of lesser ATGs around them, too. With rariety off these are the best defensive choice. Even with it on, they can still make sense sometimes.

They typically will trade one for one, dying right after a kill. Sometimes you get unlucky on the first shot or two, or get through but then are defeated by poor behind armor effect. They also don't work well against infantry afterward - not much HE, weak HE, and low life expectancy once spotted. Which will happen as soon as they fire. They also kill StuGs and such reliably, though, from hiding. Forcing the enemy to take them into consideration is vital. He can't just stand in the open or defy tree lines etc.

Sturmoviks are powerful Russian anti armor weapons, whenever the weather is clear. But they are actually somewhat more effective against Panthers and StuGs, which have thinner sides. A top hit can still hurt a Tiger and immobilization is common. It is the strafing that does it - the bombs and rockets generally miss. Only strong enemy AA to prevent them from delivering all their passes, really helps. (And distracting trucks and HTs, to some extent).

Besides the big SUs, the T-34/57 can also hurt them in 1943. It sports the same Russian 57mm as the towed, on the very maneuverable T-34 chassis. Rariety is a drawback. Cost more than the towed, but much more likely to kill 2. The MGs make them useful against infantry afterward. Also, compared to the SUs, they have a much higher ROF and the gun is quite accurate. In pure tank killing terms, these are better than the SUs.

Captured StuGs can kill them. You don't get the 80mm front variety the Germans have, just an "eggshell with hammer", that can be killed by practically any German AFV. But the gun will kill Tigers through anything but the turret front, at medium range. With an ordinary ROF, unlike the SUs.

Lend lease Valentine IXs have 57mm guns, but a weaker one than the domestic Russian version. It can penetrate 80mm at medium range. That makes it effective against StuGs, and in principle can kill a Tiger from the side. And they are very cheap. But in my experience a Tiger is too much for them, and they should stick to countering StuGs. Val IXs are slow. They cower from superior AFVs, popping smoke. The gun is marginal even with a flat angle, and side angle often makes the Tiger invulnerable. Once it sees you, it starts to turn, and its front aspect is invulnerable. They have no MGs and limited, weak HE.

Lend Lease 75mm Shermans, available in 1943, in principle have enough punch to get through a Tiger's sides at short range - unlike the T-34, which should but in practice doesn't (absent 1944, T ammo etc). They can't hurt them from the front and need a flat side shot. I find them underpowered as tank killers. But they are excellent anti infantry tanks if they live, unlike the Val IXs. They cost more. I find them less effective than T-34/57s or SU-152s, but worth the price compared to Val IXs and superior to SU-85s in every respect.

The SU-85 is something to avoid completely in 1943. Its ammo is undermodeled, suffering "shell broke up" results frequently. It can't penetrate StuGs at medium range, let alone Tigers. Even against a Tiger side, they need short range and low side angle, can suffer "shell broke up" even at 200-400m, and cower. The 85mm AA suffers similar problems. Do not take them, use 57mm ATGs instead.

The Russian 85mm ammo improves in 1944, making the T-34/85 a useful tank. But by the time the ammo for the SU is livable, the turreted version is out - and the turreted version is superior in every respect.

Pioneers infantry can kill them with demo charges if they can get within 30m. This is typically a matter of ambush rather than movement. The AI is weak about escorting its Tigers with infantry and reckless about where it sends them, compared to humans. But just the threat of these can serve to keep the monsters at arms length, close off covered areas by plugging gaps between trees, make towns dicey for tanks alone, etc.

Hidden AT mines are also effective against them, historically accurate, and quite cheap. They have three problems. In towns, they can't be placed on pavement. Daisy chains can but are readily avoided or removed by pioneers. Use roadblocks instead, if you want to close off streets in a town fight. The second minor problem is anticipating enemy routes, and just sometimes getting unlucky - a tank that cross an AT mine tile has only a 50% chance of setting one off. Sometimes they will only immobilize the Tiger, rather than killing it - so try to locate them where an M-kill takes it out of the battle, instead of leaving it a strong pillbox.

The last problem with AT mines is they can only be placed in a defender's own narrow set up area. Which is often quite shallow. A tank can cruise up to the allowed set up limit knowing that AT mines can't possibly be there. If this gives it LOS to the back of the map, mines don't help. Tanks don't need to drive onto things, only into LOS of them.

If you could set up AT mines clear to the enemy start line, they would be a lot more useful. Or if typical maps were deeper, so a tank parked at the front of your set up zone couldn't see clear to the back of your set up zone, on typical maps. But other than heavy woods rural maps, they typically can.

Very large caliber arty can gun damage or immobilize a Tiger with a near miss. But I do not consider this a worthwhile use of very heavy arty. If a whole cluster of infantry is around a Tiger, and it parks on a TRP, fine. 8 inch (210 or 203) is best at this. 152mm is as small as you can go and expect any result. Given the typical delays with such calibers, you essentially need a TRP and the tank to park within 20m-40m of it.

In 1944 you have additional options. T-34/85s can kill them with flank shots once their ammo improves. T ammo and a range under 500m helps. The turret front remains tough but you can kill through the front hull if you are that close.

The long 122mm vehicles are also out by then - IS-2s and ISU-122s. These have marginally better ROF than the 152s, but have to be used in essentially the same fashion. The HE effect on infantry is good, and the tank version has good MGs. Its own armor is undermodeled, but the hull front is useful against German 75L48 guns at medium range. (They can still kill you out to 1 km, through the turret, regularly. Not history but we live with it). Do not confuse these with the SU-122, a 1943 short barrel HE chucker with essentially no AT ability against cats.

Very late the SU-100s come out, which have a gun that kills them, good ROF, and useful sloped front armor. Of course by then (1) the war was over and (2) the threat is a King Tiger not a Tiger I, etc.

[Glider]

Originally posted by JasonC:

...

The other realistic weapon of choice is the 57mm towed ATG. It can penetrate the front hull at medium range (600m is safest), and any side aspect shot (800m to 1000m, the flatter the side angle the better). Standard rariety often makes these ridiculously expensive. ...

During some periods they are available as integral parts of Guard infantry battalions. That makes them cheaper.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by Sven:

As a twin topic to my other post, and a spinoff on the KV thread, I must ask:

Which Soviet tanks can take out a Tiger? (I'm getting thrashed by a friend as we speak (type) )

Spend some time and really check out the tiger tank armor. I don't even think of it in the same league as the KV in early '41. Even a silly little 45mm pop gun can realistically take out a tiger with a lower hull flank shot.

I don't sweat it when I see tigers and panthers anyway, because their HE, while somewhat generous, is nothing like the KV which can area fire for something like 30+ turns straight and still have ammo left.

So what even if you can't take a tiger or panther down? Think outside of the box here. A Tiger tank is really expensive, and it tells you something about the enemy force composition . . . .the implication might be, for example, that he doesn't have as much infantry or something along these lines.

In other words the weakness of the tiger isn't necessarily even finding the weak spots in the armor, or the right guns to kill it.

For example, try to hit his infantry with your armor from keyholes where the tiger cannot hit you back. You should have more armor than him if he payed the big bucks for a tiger. Let him pound on you with his tiger HE, and just focus your reserves in those places. Once he's out of ammo, rally, and wipe him off the map. Really tigers are nothing to get excited about.

[ April 02, 2005, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: Walpurgis Nacht ]

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by JasonC:

The Russian 76mm does not penetrate the Tiger, from the side, from the rear, at 200m, at 100m, on top of it. In 1944 with T ammo at 100m from a flat side shot, mebe.

:eek:

I just noticed this. Look again at the Tiger armor carefully and you will see the above quote is in desperate need of editing. Hell even the later model 45mm AT gun can kill the tiger with a lower hull flank shot.

[JasonC]

Just letting a Tiger dump 40-50 large HE shells and nearly 200 MG shots into you is not fun. Nor is it enjoyable to lose half your armor to the thing and have the rest have to hide, give up most LOS to stay alive, etc.

Nor does a force with a Tiger need to be weak in infantry. Often the choice of a Tiger is in place of other armor or arty. Even paying rariety.

A typical 1000 point meeting engagement force built around a Tiger in the Kursk period might be -

1 Tiger

1 veteran SS motorized Pz Gdr company

(comes with 3 platoons and 4 HMGs)

1 SPW 251/2 (or 2 foot 81mm)

1 SPW 251/1

1 crack sharpshooter

The Tiger and the 251/1 carry the HMGs, fast move to the rear of some cover near the objectives or with LOS over them and approaches to them. One large location or two separated ones. Those dump as soon as possible and set up.

At least one platoon (weapon platoon HQ optional too) runs 150m or so the first turn and moves the remainder, to reach the same cover ASAP and help screen the MGs. The other platoons and company HQ can take their time and use full cover, to run less of a risk. The sniper picks his own spot to reach, wanting long range LOS, goes fast early and stationary as soon as possible.

The 251/2 can go slow and stay in cover at first. It goes to the back side of cover infantry is in, somebody spots for it of course.

The infantry main body shouldn't need to attack if you are fast. If it does, a modest helping of direct HE from the Tiger should get them in.

Then the Tiger hunts the enemy armor until they are all cowering. If any guns try to hurt the Tiger or the infantry, the Tiger replies direct or the 251/2 gets a spotter etc.

You don't have to worry about large caliber FOs using map fire because it is a meeting engagement. You don't have to worry about small HE because a whole company of vets aren't even going to get their hair mussed by a small FO. You don't have to worry about guns because they are hard to get forward, you have assymmetric 81mm on map, and the Tiger can duel most of them frontally anyway. You don't have to worry about most armor because the Tiger will just kill it or make it cower.

A medium FO that is reactive might hurt a portion of the infantry - like a 120mm. Just dodge when you see the spotting rounds. A platoon might get messed up, or one pair of HMGs. But not remotely the whole force.

To stop infantry, you have great ammo depth from 4 HMGs plus the Tiger's MGs. Direct HE from the Tiger on bits of cover rather than open. The Pz Gdrs are great firepower but low ammo - put them on shortened arcs and they will kill anybody who closes with them.

The difficulty isn't just the Tiger. It is killing a company of vet infantry without any of the usual helpers that deal with large bodies of infantry in cover. The Tiger draws those trumps. Its own firepower is enourmous, in the other direction. It does not need to spend HE unless the target is perfect. It just stays on vehicle covered arc most of the time.

The hull MG still picks infantry targets in the open, but you can keep that up all day. Or just go hull down, to present the reinforced turret front and save MG ammo when you want to. Whenever you want to shoot, change the arc to a standard one, or give a direct HE order targeting a particular piece of cover for one minute.

You definitely want to be able to kill a Tiger, to prevent kind of tactic. Sure, if you can't, you have to concentrate on the stuff you can hurt. But the idea that this is trivial or works just fine or that anybody with a Tiger has no other force, is poppycock.

Uberarmor is very tough to fight. And the best way is to have some shooter that can actually kill it. Fight as best you can without showing that shooter, and hope the uberarmor guy gets cocky and aggressive. Then make your play and bag the thing. You are much more likely to win after succeeding at this, than just pretending it isn't wrecking your combined arms coordination and blowing the heck out of important units.

So, know what kills the things, and bring something along that will.

[JasonC]

I've killed any number of Tigers. I've fast moved T-34s to point blank from their sides. I've killed them at a range of 25m, maneuvered to get first LOS from 60m from 135 degrees of the front and 180 off the turret, with a fast move to dead astern within 10 seconds. I play Russians a lot. I know what the stats are and I know what actually happens. Yes occasionally a 76mm flat side shot kills one - very occasionally. With T ammo and stalking opportunities as good as those above, I'll even try it.

But the average Russian commander can no more expect to kill Tigers with the historically accurate 76mm weapons, than he can expect to earn his living by picking $100 bills off the trees in his front yard. You want to kill a Tiger, get a serious shooter. You want to watch tank cower routines and run up Wittman fantasy role player wannabees scores, buy a T-34 or a ZIS-3.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by JasonC:

But the average Russian commander can no more expect to kill Tigers with the historically accurate 76mm weapons, than he can expect to earn his living by picking $100 bills off the trees in his front yard. You want to kill a Tiger, get a serious shooter. You want to watch tank cower routines and run up Wittman fantasy role player wannabees scores, buy a T-34 or a ZIS-3.

Man I feel it's the same thing with you every time. You have many good ideas but when you get stuck and are unable to do something, you assume that's just the way it is.

And as per usual, if I offer to run a demonstration against you to show you exactly how it's done, you will ignore the challenge or quit before 10 turns have passed.

I have killed 100s of tigers with T34/76 . . .no need for the tungsten or higher quality AP ammo. It in fact can almost as easily be done with later model t70s.

T34s will not "cower" if you use them correctly. If you ask real nice like, I might even tell you how.

Otherwise maybe tomorrow I'll post a screenshot to show you what mean about my previously posted recommendations. AKA, ignore the fecking Tiger. But that will have to wait till tomorrow because it's bedtime.

[JasonC]

I am not at all unable to do something, I've done it repeatedly. But I can tell the difference between things that are hard and things that are reliable, that any decent player can expect to accomplish regularly. And I don't give advice to show off, I give advice to help people.

Many players who know some history expect to kill Tigers in the historically accurate and doctrinal way, given historically accurate Russian weapons. Which means, use T-34/76s or ZIS-3s, the former by closing from multiple angles, and the latter from ambush from multiple directions. Both expected to be possible at 500 yards or less.

That is history. But it is not CM. In CM, trying that will get you killed. The ranges needed are less than half that, and the reliable side angle windows are very narrow. Too narrow to apply the historical tactics. It is much simpler to smash the things with SU-152s, or hole them with flank shots at 600m using 57mm ATGs. Multiple angles and those weapons work. Multiple angles and 76s do not. Because 76s are deliberately neutered in CM. They need another hurdle - point blank range and flat angle and hull up and fast move yada yada.

Which is historical horsefeathers. Far more ahistorical than using a 57mm ATG to do the job, with the perfectly realistic and doctrinally correct multiple angle AT ambush. Or than using a T-34/57 or SU-152 to kill from the side, at a range short enough to get a one shot kill before it turns its turret. The realistic tactic can be duplicated and is superior to the gamey tactic. The gamey tactic uses an historical piece of equipment, but can't use it historically and makes it all far harder than it should be, or needs to be.

There is no reason whatever for Russian CM players to put up with that, and to try to kill all the Tigers they encounter with 76mm, or to think they are being wimps or inexpert or something if they find it hard. They aren't being wimps, the task they face if they use 76s is far harder than the historical one. They aren't wrong if they find it hard, it is hard.

And it simply doesn't need to be. There is nothing you can do to a Tiger with a T-34/76 that you can't also do with a T-34/57, but there is something you can do with the the /57 that you can't with the /76. And that is, drive only as good as a real WW II Russian tanker and kill a Tiger as a result.

If you advocate fighting Tigers with underpowered weapons, just ignoring them and concentrating on other things, then why don't you also advocate never taking Tigers, and fighting with just Panzer IV longs? Aren't they historically correct if underpowered weapons, that can kill anything the Russians have, if used with a tenth of the skill needed to kill a Tiger with a T-34/57, let alone the hoops one needs to jump through to do it with a /76? Or is your "everyone should be expert enough to do anything with two pennies and a piece of string" riff for Russians only?

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by JasonC:

I am not at all unable to do something, I've done it repeatedly. But I can tell the difference between things that are hard and things that are reliable, that any decent player can expect to accomplish regularly. And I don't give advice to show off, I give advice to help people.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting but it sounds like projection to me. And you generally give wonderful advice Jason, I always enjoy reading your posts. It just irks me when you post things that are flat wrong. However rare it happens you are bloody insistant about it. Otherwise I just shut up and admire your wonderful posts like anyone else.

Originally posted by JasonC:

It is much simpler to smash the things with SU-152s, or hole them with flank shots at 600m using 57mm ATGs. Multiple angles and those weapons work. Multiple angles and 76s do not. Because 76s are deliberately neutered in CM. They need another hurdle - point blank range and flat angle and hull up and fast move yada yada.

Well of course it's simpler to use SU-152s. It's simpler to use SU-100s, and beyond as well. But, scenarios aside, those cost a lot more points than cheapo t34/76s. Why buy one uber tank to fight another uber tank? What skill is there in that? roll the dice, 50/50 chance. You've avoided the most important rule of engagement and that is to AVOID A FAIR FIGHT at all costs. For the cost of 1 IS-2 I can purchase 5 t70s. In medium terrain I'll take those 5 t70s any day of the week against your coin toss head to head duel. Likewise in your combined arms 1000 point ME example above as Russians I'd purchase 3 t34/76s + a t70 over 1-2 t34/57s . . . and I would be wiser for it.

Originally posted by JasonC:

There is no reason whatever for Russian CM players to put up with that, and to try to kill all the Tigers they encounter with 76mm, or to think they are being wimps or inexpert or something if they find it hard. They aren't being wimps, the task they face if they use 76s is far harder than the historical one. They aren't wrong if they find it hard, it is hard.

You are correct at least to say it isn't easy. And that's where the dimension of ignoring the tiger comes decisively into play. So he can pound one of you squads at a time with HE. One damn position! And if you know how to make good use of your infantry in cover he should be shooting at empty space half the time anyway. In sharp contrast, my 3 t34s + t70 can hammer 4 of his positions for 2-3x longer overall due to increased ammo loads. That's something like 9-10x the bang the tiger can throw off, and that's if he gets to spend it all. The key is to find good positions for your armor to be effective so that if he wants to kill your t34s, he'll have to get up really close. At which point he shifts from being difficult to kill, to easy.

Originally posted by JasonC:

If you advocate fighting Tigers with underpowered weapons, just ignoring them and concentrating on other things, then why don't you also advocate never taking Tigers, and fighting with just Panzer IV longs? Aren't they historically correct if underpowered weapons, that can kill anything the Russians have, if used with a tenth of the skill needed to kill a Tiger with a T-34/57, let alone the hoops one needs to jump through to do it with a /76?

a) 1 tiger vs 3t34/76s + t70

or

b)3 pzIVH vs 3t34/76s + t70

As the russian player I would rather avoid the fair fight and take on the tiger.

[ April 02, 2005, 11:59 PM: Message edited by: Walpurgis Nacht ]

[LongLeftFlank]

Sorry to cut in on the escalating flame war here, but I've just finished two QBs vs the AI featuring the much propagandized "animal killer" tactics.

In each scenario my 1943 vintage SU-122/152 platoon playing defense in flat farmland with veteran crews got easily slaughtered by 75mm longs... IVG's and StuGs. Every SU was abandoned after at most 3 hits on their frontal armor at over 300-500m range (except for 1 which got killed by arty). They knocked out a few enemy AFV, but definitely got the worst of it.

Maybe I'm just projecting old ASL misinformation here, but I always thought the Zvierboys had thicker frontal armor than that. Is there a spall /flaking problem being modeled here or what? I did a search of the boards and nothing showed up.

I might try it again with the '44 ASU heavies, but I'm concluding that my animal killers are sheep in wolf's clothing...

[GreenAsJade]

Good on you, Walpurgis, for being good spirited about it.

Please do tell us how it's done. Screenies and all. I've had a wonderful time with Tigers in a recent scenario where my opponent had bazillions of T34s. What should he have been doing, if he wanted to take me down?

GaJ

[Cthulhu Dreams]

Part of the problem here is that something that is easy for Walpurgis is not easy for the general body of CM players

I've seen the method he proposes, and it requires a perfect tableau of timing and co-ordination amoung multiple units in a situation that might not be easily achieveable.

However, Walpurgis can and has beaten the tar out of me with it - but I could not possibly hope to employ the solution against him:)

[Glider]

Mostly I play Russians and, until posts like this remind me, I tend to forget just how much my style of play is defined by Tigers and similar heavies.

It all starts with purchases, I buy 57mm guns since I expect to have to deal with Tigers. Since the guns are expensive I purchase a Guards inf battalion with organic 57mm guns... already my inf purchase options are severely restricted and I am yet to see whether my enemy actually bought Tigers. If SU-85M or SU-100 are available, I will buy them, because of their decent armour, although they are good for AT work and not much else.

Further, a pioneer platoon is a must, they are pathetic as infantry but at least they have ammo depth.

Then the game begins and I have to hide my main assets very carefully because, God forbid, there might be a Tiger sitting on the yonder hill and it will get enough target practice anyway, thank you.

Once I verify that my opponents has Tigers (or, in my last game, a King Tiger), the entire battle plan begins to revolve around that fact... already your purchase has mutated because of *possible* Tigers, now your battle plan is being deformed beyond recognition. For me killing Tigers is mostly a matter of frustrating your opponent. You hide your 57mm guns (or whatever you have that can kill Tigers) and you start initiating attacks at places the Tiger cannot possibly see. Turns pass, your opponent begins to fret about the Tiger sitting idle and being just "a waste of points" (rarely taking into account the problems just the possibility of Tigers being bought created for you) and, near the end of the game, if you are lucky and your infantry is winning despite all the drawbacks, he moves the Tiger forward to get off a few HE shots. That is the chance you worked so hard to get. Now, as often as not, your 57mm gets two or three side penetrations, the Tiger turret rotates and kills the gun.

[ April 03, 2005, 01:07 AM: Message edited by: Glider ]

[GreenAsJade]

Originally posted by Cthulhu Dreams:

Part of the problem here is that something that is easy for Walpurgis is not easy for the general body of CM players

Right, but all I want is to be able to say to my partner "see, what are you complaining about, all you had to do was 'this'"...

[Cthulhu Dreams]

If I was your partner I'd turn around and wack you upside of the head.

However, I have a question! Recently I've been experimenting with almost entirely tank based buys. I've been using stugs in an interlocking field of fire with a tiger as "fire brigade" and HMG's with a minimum of infantry.

I tried this technique against graves registration and major vic'ed him - partly because my tiger came though and nailed 6 tanks in 6 shots. I did nothing more than drive around the tiger a bit and hit go.

Force compisition was 6 stugs, 6 150MM HE chuckers 1 tiger and an infantry coy defending against a the matching soviet force - no rarity.

How would you counter that little lot - I'm thinking with an eye towards purchases here (no rarity, 43)? Map was relatively open and my troops where veterans.

[flamingknives]

Mortar (50mm for staying power), probably Valentine Mk.Xs, although Churchill Mk.IIIs might be useful for the thicker armour.

Probably a large arty module (rockets or somefink) to spam a couple of pre-planned barrages off to see if I can't get a couple of guns.

ATRs a-plenty to keep tanks buttoned and a few light guns (45mm L66 , regimental guns) to provide overwatch and stop the Stugs from moving about, and hail-fire the tiger if he pops up.

That said, it might be worth going asymmetric, getting lots of infantry plus 50mm mortars for the guns.

Of course, if I were to go for a more realistic approach, I'd wait until nightfall and infiltrate the position with infantry and armour.

[JasonC]

SU-152s are not ubertanks. They are eggshells with hammers. They do not cost appreciably more than T-34s. T-34/57s do not cost appreciable more than T-34/76s with rariety off, which is when I advocate them. 57mm ATGs cost about as much as T-34s with rariety on (many months) and far less, 2/3rds as much with it off. All of them cost far less than the Tigers they can fight.

A fight between an eggshell with hammer and a Tiger is not a mindless 50-50 coin toss. It is a skill determined fight, entirely. The Tiger kills any of the when it looks at them. They kill it if and only if they fire and connect before it gets a shot off, their way. The skill involved is, however, limited to the general stalking problem, not the ridiculous requirement to be 100m from side at 80 to 100 degees off the front facing.

Charges to such ranges typically fail because other AT assets form an integrated AT defense. They can fail just from the Tiger's own fire, but skill can address that. But only by not attacking in many, many situations - cowering with the tanks until one such presents itself.

But when the attempt is made, a schreck team or ATG not seen before often kills flankers trying it and shows a needed route is closed. The Tiger moves and eats some other prong of the attempt, because the side that has it knows which side is covered. (Bottomless pit sides also close off approach angles etc).

Killing Tigers from the side at 100m with vanilla weapons is mostly a stupid AI trick and has nothing to do with historical tactics. Those telling Russians to deal with Tigers that way are not trying to help them. They are trying to excuse German players using Tigers.

Walpurgis on KVs in 1941, says they are such a big headache that players shouldn't take them - too gamey and ahistorical. Walpurgis on Tigers says they are pushovers you kill with T-70s. (T-70 swarms are one counter to StuGs, not to Tigers. 30mm sides they can actually penetrate, at least if range and side angle aren't too lousy).

On the approach he advocates, there is only one element of it that is true, and I've addressed it before. You should kill the stuff around the Tiger with weapons that can't hurt it, rather than wasting their ammo and their lives fighting it directly at range etc. If you have nothing that can kill it from range you should skulk with your armor.

The German response is to skulk with his infantry - the little keyholes all the T-34s use can't see the whole map and the Germans don't need to waltz in front of all of them. The keyhole you do need to cross, gets a visit from the cat and that T-34 dies or gets out of the way. Which it does not need to come close to do. It only needs to get where the German infantry wants to move. The T-34 can see that or it has already made itself irrelevant.

Much better is to use all of that to set up the Tiger kill with a real shooter. He drives it somewhere, to plug a keyhole or to intimidate a company or what have you. You play the shooter from an unexpected angle. He can avoid this seriously only by staying in his own backfield and being sparing about showing his sides - e.g. keyhole himself. That gives you livable Tiger free map to fight on. And lets you approach through the dead ground his keyhole edges create, if you do want to close with him.

All of which is far more realistic, far easier, and works better than the "take nothing that can hurt him beyond 200m" approach, which Walpurgis is advocating. It is bad advice. It is quite different than his advice about 1941 KVs - tell people who take them they are being gamey. It has no parallel in his advice to German tankers about their choice of vehicle.

[walpurgis nacht]

However ideal and overly symmetrical, this screenshot demonstrates the first and most important point. . . . feel free to ignore the Tiger!

In a typical combined arms ME, you need a 1500 point game or more for the krauts to be able to afford even 1 Tiger tank. The Russians can afford 6 t34/76s at this point level! I would actually prefer 3 t34/76s + 6 t70s, but for the sake of keeping the screenshot from getting cluttered went with the 6 t34s.

So in this case the tiger is on broad over-watch in the center of the map. Look at how many places you can utterly smash with HE while you remain out of the Tiger’s LOS! I assure you he will very quickly become frustrated with you smashing his infantry and MG positions and start reacting to you with his Tiger. The Tiger is super slow and your t34s can easily scoot a little along the green arrow paths to either more aggressive or more protected positions in anticipation. It’s just THAT easy.

Which side would you rather have your infantry on here, receiving 50 tiger 88mm shells or 360 t34 76mm shells? You begin to see my point. The krauts simply cannot win this way. He will eventually HAVE to come to you to win. If he does check out the next screenshot I will post. If he doesn’t, well you already won.

[ April 03, 2005, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: Walpurgis Nacht ]

[walpurgis nacht]

OK, so my poor theoretical kraut opponent is getting very upset here. He finally sees that he must take down my armor or this one is over. So his tiger decides he’ll push over to his left map side area and move in to take out some of these pesky t34s. Compare the t34 positions in this screenshot to the last one. The green arrow lines show you the simple moves I made to adjust myself to keep the t34s safe from the tiger (as if it isn’t obvious enough). Now that he’s close enough it’s time to pounce.

This becomes a bit more difficult to describe from here. The “fast” move orders I have visible on the map give you some idea of what routes to send your pouncing force along, but the real trick with something like this is timing.

The first and most important thing to note is that you want to have the fast move orders “cocked and loaded” at all times! In other words, every turn up until you actually release your t34s you should have your fast movement orders already down, using the pause command to delay them just over 60 seconds. That way they are ready to pounce instantly beginning whichever turn you like.

Now my fast movement orders are actually wrong, if I did them correctly the screen would be too cluttered. Look at the t34 tank I numbered “4”. Notice he has fast movement orders that wrap around the tiger. You actually want to do this with all of your t34s! If ever your t34s reach the end of their movement orders the chances they will “cower” just went up to 100%. At this range you really don’t need to stop to shoot accurately, so keep them moving once they get in close. You will still, on a few occasions have one cower but it’s quite rare compared to stopping to shoot. That is why “hunt” and things like that should never, ever be used.

Anyway on to the timing. The tiger has a “very slow turret” . . . and that is what is really going to kill him in the end on this one. You want to time your rush so that tank numbers 1-3 are the first he “sees”. He will begin to rotate his slow-assed turret to deal and at least 2 of these 3 tank would make it to the tiger due to the slow turret speed. But your real kill tanks, numbers 4-6 should have a slight delay (every case is different, in this one I’d only delay them 10 seconds longer than numbers 1-3). This way the tiger will almost have his turret faced the complete opposite direction from your attack lanes . . .giving you plenty of time to totally unload on his flank at point blank range.

Even with only 3 t34s this situation favors Russians.

[ April 03, 2005, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: Walpurgis Nacht ]

[Glider]

One hidden German 75mm AT gun would blow this solution to hell. People I play usually have 2-3.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by Glider:

One hidden German 75mm AT gun would blow this solution to hell. People I play usually have 2-3.

It would take more than 1. But I tried to avoid adding too many variables into play to keep things simple and conceptual here.

For example I myself would likewise have a few 57mm AT guns, or at least a few zis 3s up on my side and the tiger might not even make it that far to begin with. Not to mention this is an obvious flat open map and so on. It's simply too complicated to try and include every possibility. I want to avoid too many variables here. I assure you I can think of a list longer than most.

[Glider]

I accept what you say, but I never, ever, in 200+ CM games I played, saw a solution like this one work.

If I have Tigers I keep them carefully covered by an infantry screen, panzershrecks, other tanks and, particularly, AT guns covering flank approaches.

I expect the same from my opponents. That is why I would never try something like this as Russian. Simply, if one or two AT-guns or panzershrecks open up you lose 6 T-34s and you lose the game, badly, in just one roll of dice.

That said, I regularly play against Tigers with T-34/76s... but I remain aware of the fact that the presence of Tigers, even just the possibility that my enemy might have them, dominates the tactical situation throughout the game. There is no Soviet tank from 1942 on you can say that about.