Why are there no Char Bs?

[Tigrii]

This is a heavy French tank that was used in May 1940 against the Germans. The Germans had great respect for it, since it was virtually immune to their Panzers and PAKs, in much the same way that the KV-1 was in '41. They captued a bunch of these, so why aren't they in the game? The Germans have the Hotchkiss, so why not the Char B?

[WWB]

Engine cannot handle dual turrets, so nothing where the real MA is a 75mm sponson mounted piece could get into the game. This includes the american Lee tank, aka a grave for seven brothers. It appeared in significant numbers after lend-lease got going.

WWB

[Schrullenhaft]

One source says that only 4 Char-B's were actually transported to and used on the Eastern Front (and 12 of a 'flamethrower' variant were used in the Crimea). Those that were functioning were primarily used in France and the Balkans.

On top of this rarity is the fact that is mentioned above - two separately targetable cannons that the engine has a problem modeling.

[Prinz Eugen]

I don't think the Char-B would've come into any good use in the east. Considering the difficult terrain and the sheer weight of the tank, they'd have had severe difficulties in keeping up in the pace of the Blitzkrieg.

[Panzertruppe]

Would have like to see the "Lee" M3 tank.....reminds of the old movie "Sahara"!

[Little_Black_Devil]

Well - aside from the scant numbers, and problems with dual turrets there are other reason's why we ought not to see the Char B1 Bis - on the Eastern Front.

This is of course - because, by mid-war standards, heck even by 1941, the Char was an overrated waste of resources and production effort - in comparrison to other tanks then in service and production.

The Char, even in 1940, suffered greviously, from mechanical brakedowns, likely second only to the Crusader in North Africa. Its mechanical unreliability, was further exacerbated by the specialized type of fuel it required - aviation fuel. Unlike the Char's German counterparts, the Char couldn't just pull up to a gas station and fill up.

In addition, design flaws (like the radiator grill on the Char's left hand side), made it relatively vulnerable on the battlefield. Sure, the Char generally had thick armour at about 60mm in most facings - but no such protection existed over the laterally facing radiator grill on the left hand side of the tank. It might as well have been an open hatch! :eek:

As well, the Char suffered from a slow turret traverse for its 47mm turret gun - fleeting targets evaded it with relative ease, then managing to get in under the Chars inadequate vision facilities and where they could really do some harm.

The ergonomics of the Char, were also not designed with battlefield efficientcy in mind.

The Commander, sat in the turret. He traversed the turret and elevated the 47mm turret gun. He loaded the 47mm turret gun as well as its accompanying coaxial machine gun. He then was also the defacto gunner of both weapons in the turret. When he wasn't busy, he commanded the rest of the tank.

The Driver, was responsible for driving the tank as well as operating the hull mounted 75mm main gun. The Char's main gun, a hull mounted 75mm howitzer could only be "aimed" horizontally by the driver, utilizing a special hydrostatic drive. This special drive system, was also prone to breakdown. The driver's periscope, was calibrated so as to accomodate aiming of the main gun. The unfortunate Driver also had to elevate the gun as well.

The Char's other two crewmembers, consisted of a radio operator and a dedicated loader for the 75mm main gun.

Its interesting to note, that the Char B1 bis' would-be successor, the Char B1 ter was to be equipt with a fifth crewmember whose dedicated purpose, was that of a mechanic.

In France 1940, German tanks, like the Panzer 38(t), quickly learned how to outfight the ominous Char by exploiting its weaknesses, chielfy the Char's poor vision, poor turret traverse and radiator grill.

The only French tank that ever really impressed the Germans, in terms of mobility, protection and frepower was the French S-35 Cavalry Tank, which of course is already in CMBB.

My long winded point is - the Char was too much of a logistical challenge and battlefield liability to have ever seriously been considered for deployment on the Eastern Front, and history reflects that.

Keeping in mind the Char's faults which I have outlined above, the Germans steered well clear of the Char when they looked for front line tanks to muster agains the Soviets.

The Char B-2(f) Flame throwing variant, saw very limited action in the Crimea. While suffering from many of the same problems as the B1 bis, this varriant of the Char rolled into battle with a relatively thinnly armoured (30mm) container housing the fuel for the flamethrower, which replaced the hull gun. Its easy to see where the Char might have been considered as a feasible platform for a flamethrower by virtue of its early war reputation as a monster; but a closer examination of the vehicles limitations and vulnerabilities quickly indicate why it was never terribly successful.

So - I guess in short, one might just say that the Germans simply didn't like the Char B1 bis and thats why they never employed it on the Front line more extensively than they did.

Hope that helps

[tracer]

damn devil you got the char history down to a "T"

[Michael Dorosh]

The radiator grille - and this thing was huge, mind, like a metre square according to TANKS OF WORLD WAR 2 - was sort of like the open ventilation shaft in the Death Star trench. About as big as a womp rat, and critically vulnerable.

[ December 31, 2002, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[SgtMuhammed]

Forget the Char, I want the Maus.

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by Sgtgoody:

Forget the Char, I want the Maus.

Base cost: 500

Standard rarity factor: 1000%

[coldmeter]

Not much else to add to what has already been posted but jsut to say that the germans also had a couple of B-1's on the channnel islands aswell. of the conversions about 60 were flamethowers and 16 were SP howitzers. The SP guns did not actually see any action, unlike the flamethrowers.

[BulletRat]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

The radiator grille - and this thing was huge, mind, like a metre square according to TANKS OF WORLD WAR 2 - was sort of like the open ventilation shaft in the Death Star trench. About as big as a womp rat, and critically vulnerable.

...well if Char Bs ever get into the game, guess they'd better add Proton Torpedos for the Germans.

[demoss]

The radiator grille - and this thing was huge, mind, like a metre square according to TANKS OF WORLD WAR 2 - was sort of like the open ventilation shaft in the Death Star trench. About as big as a womp rat, and critically vulnerable.

Yup. Any time we've had Char B1-bis floating around in ASL when I've been playing with my friends, invariably a Star Wars reference would come up.

I'd have sure liked to see the flame variant, but I can't say I'm surprised to see it not present.

Doug

[MikeyD]

The BFC master plan is to eventually stumble into the early war, so eventually we'll all be playing with Char Bs, Matilda Mk Is, Pz Is, etc. etc. But in the best of circumstances that's at least two games away. We'll have grey hair by the time we get it!

... oh yeh, some of use already do (from waiting for CMBB!)