Kingtigers in QBs in CMBB

[meldorian]

Hi!

I often play CMBB against a friend. We usually play with the settings meeting engagement, between 1500 and 2000 points, and free force selection. Now my problem is that whenever we play 1944 or 45, my friend, who insists on playing the Germans, *always* chooses a bunch of Tiger IIs and some infantry. As he normally buys at least three Kingtigers, he has enough to have one KT protecting each of his flanks, so flanking him is nearly impossible, especially as he uses a few squads of infantry as scouts on the flanks. Until now, whenever I tried to flank him with tanks, he always managed to turn at least one of the super-cats before I got there, which results in tactical AI withdrawing my armor. Frontal engagements are sucide at best. So how the hell am I supposed to win against this stupid tactic of his? The only thing I noticed is that the T34/85's tungsten round can sometimes penetrate the KT's frontal armor, and, of course, the IS-3 can stand up to the KT and win a prolonged engagement due to numerical superiority (the IS-3 is cheaper than the KT). I have tried assaults with infantry after dealing with the German infantry, but those guard smg squads don't seem to be able to damage the heavy tank even from 10m away. What do I do? Except demanding that he no longer takes so many Kingtigers, of course.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Play with variable rarity on.

Play in May '44 or earlier before KTs show up.

Buy Su-100s!

[Vanir Ausf B]

Ok, scratch that last suggestion. I just looked and SU-100s aren't as good against KTs as I thought.

Since you are playing meeting engagements, I would suggest setting weather to 'random'. Wet ground will slow KTs down, and often bog them, while your T-34/85s flank them.

[Zimorodok]

The key here is "meeting engagement", i think. if his KT's are the trouble, avoid them. Since he's all hot to trot for an armor battle, don't give him one. Don't buy ANY tanks. Buy some AT guns and lots of infantry. If your guards SMG squad can't blow up the KT, bring in some Pioneers or flamethrowers. You already know how to get within 10m of the darn thing.

If you want to have tanks, you're going to have to set up 'keyhole' traps where his KT has to pass perpendicularly to a nearly hidden hull down IS-2 or T-34/85 (sometimes behind churches works real well.)

Zimorodok

[Beta1]

I agree with Zimorodok, go armor light/infantry only and deprive him of a target. He has to kill huge numbers of infantry to recover the cost of 3 KTs. Go for types with demo charges or flamethrowers to take out his armor.

Make him play on maps with lots of cover and hills to prevent the KTs shooting you up at range, play in wet conditions to make them bog down. Combine that and overwhelming infantry numbers and you should take him down easily - after all while his 3 KTs are stuck in a field somewhere your infantry will massively outnumber him.

Failing that dont let the git play the germans all the time and see how he likes it.

As a final are there any planes that can take out a KT?

[Lanzfeld]

Saturate the area around the KT with smoke. Flank like crazy with Russian tanks. Repeat if nessisary.

[meldorian]

Thanks for the suggestions, guys.

Concerning aircraft vs. Kingtigers, forget it. The problem is that the big bombs capable of killing the tank never hit while the cannons are no real danger. I have even set up QBs where I simply placed half a dozen KTs on open terrain and just watched the equivalent in terms of points in Russain bombers attack them for 20 turns. The planes managed to kill one or two commanders and immobilize one or two tanks, but that's about it.

[xerxes]

Or just agree no KTs.

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by xerxes:

Or just agree no KTs.

The rarity rules were designed to deal with this very problem. Standard rarity would more or less wipe out the KT because of excessive cost. In a sense, this leads to the same effect: no KTs. Or, you could use variable rarity so he could occasionally buy KTs but only when he got lucky. If he objects to this, I'd say, find a new friend...

OTOH, if you want to give him one nasty surprise before you change to variable rarity, use the free selection to buy a bunch of 57mm ATGs. These rare guns will be cheap because of no rarity costs and they can kill KTs--esp. from the flank--so you could buy a bunch of them... Buy a few trucks or jeeps so you can move them around. If the terrain is right in an ME (ask for moderate trees and small hills) you should have the cover to rush the guns forward to positions where you can defend the VLs with your guns. Your trucks are faster than his KTs. Get your infantry up into the cover, too. asap. Then you hold the flags and he has to come at you with his KTs and you should get some good flanks shots at his KTs with your 57mms. Might be a nasty surprise and should teach him a lesson.

[ April 16, 2003, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[flamingknives]

If rarity is off, buy some T34/57s. they're nasty little vehicles.

Either that or entreat your opponent to an early war battle and pick KVs. That'll learn 'im.

[meldorian]

1.) KTs are +30% most of the time. Considering that the SU-100, the ISU-122, and the IS-2 are always at least +20%, too, that is hardly prohibitive, considering the KT's invulnerability.

2.) The 57mm can penetrate the Tiger's frontal armor, but not the KT's. Well, maybe it can, but only with tungsten rounds and not any better than the 122mm AP-rounds used in 45. And with those, I needed several round of constant pounding to kill three out of four KTs (the fourth retreated, I had 5 IS-3s firing from point-blank range). Then again, the 57mm gun is really cheap without rarity, so maybe I should give it a try. But I am highly sceptical about this. Have you tried it out or are you making an educated guess?

[ April 16, 2003, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: meldorian ]

[walpurgis nacht]

First thing, most *good* players just don't buy KTs to begin with, because it often doesn't reflect any skill whatsoever to win with them. But considering some have no scruples, the "buy lots of infantry and spread out" tactic is the best way.

It honestly tickles me a bit when I see my opponent has wasted points on an Elephant or a KT. KT is more dangerous because it has more HE, but we're talking 40 rounds max. So split your squads and spread them out. Force him to spend his HE . . . .count the rounds he fires, you'll know he's getting close to kaput when he reaches 35 shots. In a 2000 point QB, you can easily exhaust his 3 KTs with an infantry heavy force.

Hope this helps.

[meldorian]

Yes, that sounds like a nice idea. I will try it out on Friday. Thanks.

[mike_the_wino]

Didn't Nippy have a post where he proposed the "Nippy Challenge"? Do a search to find how to set the map in your favor. With his rules you should be able take 3 KTs with a platoon of T-34/85s (3 or 4?), a platoon of TDs, and 2 sharpshooters. I did it this as an all armor battle, like Nippy described, and KO'd all 3 KTs with only 2 AFVs lost (one T-34/85 and some thin-skinned thing). But it would seem logical that with some adaptation you should be able to deal with the inf threat as well.

Quite a load of fun actually. One of the few times I enjoyed playing as the Ruskies.

[sightreader]

Originally posted by meldorian:

As he normally buys at least three Kingtigers, he has enough to have one KT protecting each of his flanks

Restrict start zone the center, not entire back edge. You can also turn a square map diagonally and start in opposite corners. Make sure starting spots don't have dominating terrain. Use the zone editor and import a map rather than letting QB generate a map.

Big tanks will have to spread out to protect their flank, but faster tanks will beat them there.

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by meldorian:

2.) The 57mm can penetrate the Tiger's frontal armor, but not the KT's. Well, maybe it can, but only with tungsten rounds and not any better than the 122mm AP-rounds used in 45. And with those, I needed several round of constant pounding to kill three out of four KTs (the fourth retreated, I had 5 IS-3s firing from point-blank range). Then again, the 57mm gun is really cheap without rarity, so maybe I should give it a try. But I am highly sceptical about this. Have you tried it out or are you making an educated guess?

meldorian,

I was making an educated guess to some degree--I've seen 57mm kills on the KT but had not fully tested their effectiveness and wasn't sure how the cost issues would actually play out.

So, to see whether it would really work, I tried a 1500 ME QB vs. the Axis AI. Moderate trees, small hills. I picked both sides--unrestricted. For the Axis I took 3 reg KTs and a company of recon infantry. For the Russians, I started with 9 57mm guns (71 pts each, I think). Under mech inf I found something cool--an armored recon platoon that comes with 10 M3 scout cars plus an inf recon platoon--enough scout cars for all of my guns, plus an 76mm inf gun I threw in. Then I picked a SMG company that came with a couple of Maxims. All reg. So, for my money, I've got more infantry (most of SMG, great for woods fighting--hey, can a KT maven call this gamey?), 10 guns including 9 lethal ATGs, and MG equipped transport for the ATGs.

Then, I raced for the flags, spreading out some inf and atgs on the flanks, so I'd cover myself from inf flank attacks and get flank shots on the KTs.

The result? 88-12 total vic for my Ruskies, with an AI surrender on turn 28. The 57mm proved quite effective--in general I found that flank shots work best, but with so many guns you can get them from some angle. The KTs side turret is vulnerable, so even if the tank is facing your gun, if you distract him with another target, he will turn the turret and you can kill him with a side turret shot.

It's a bit tricky to manuever the 57mms into position through the rugged terrain, and the two minute setup can lead to some tense moments, but I'm satisfied that the 57mm is an effective weapon against the KT, particularly in cover and in large numbers.

Remember to protect your atgs with infantry against infantry attack. Let the need for tank support lure in the KTs, then wax 'em with the atgs.

Your opponent has committed the fatal mistake of becoming predictable. Make him pay by picking a force specifically designed to take advantage of the vulnerabilities of the force he's picked. Admittedly, my battle was only vs. the AI, but I think it shows that this equipment can work against that force.

[Nippy]

Originally posted by mike_the_wino:

Didn't Nippy have a post where he proposed the "Nippy Challenge"? Do a search to find how to set the map in your favor. With his rules you should be able take 3 KTs with a platoon of T-34/85s (3 or 4?), a platoon of TDs, and 2 sharpshooters.

I got your E-mail, mike, and for all others interested, "The Nippy Challenge" along with a discussion on Soviet vs German Heavy tanks can be found here.

I have Russian class now and need to run. I'll be back to edit this post tommorow and give my thoughts on the German heavy kitties...

Six different ways to say a verb, Jeebus.

Anyway. I've fiddled around with some test battles and here are some ideas for meldorian's KT infestation:

- Battle Map. Make it large so enemy forces get spread out, give it light trees and hills, and most of all set the weather contidion to "Raining". That last one along will cure him of his love for the KT. Bog-O-Rific!

- Infanty. Use 82mm mortar spotter (6 tube) or on map 82mm/50mm mortars on a reverse slope with a HQ spotter to "strip" away any infantry following the KTs. Don't forget that both also have smoke rounds that can be used to cover flank attacks and generally blind the enemy.

- AT rifles. For forcing a tank to button up, I much prefer them over Snipers. They also come in handy if any HTs show up.

- Shoot and Scoot. A great way to combat "Cowardly Soviet Tanker Syndrom". At least this way the Soviet tank will get a stable shot off before retreating. It also works for popping out from behind a building and getting a shot off.

- Spliting fire. When the time comes for your tanks to engage the enemies, always try to split the enemy tanks fire by 90 degrees. Observe

X=T-34 #1

XX=T-34 #2

H=KT

O=Hill

X

O

H OXX

Both T-34's should pop out at about the same time. With T-34#1 unhiding moments before #2. That way the KT will be too busy targeting T-34#1 with #2 gets a nice flank shot. Engagment Range should never be over 1000m.

- Aircraft. Don't bother.

- JS-2, and th ISU series. Too slow for flanking. Although the ISU-152's 152mm HE round will rattle a KT to death, they are not really worth it. But, the JS-2 makes for a nice attention getter when going for flank shots. Let the JS-2 go head to head with KT with the T-34/85s flanking.

Now for Anti Tank infanty Units. No one unit is really the "best", both have their ups and downs. So Lets examine all of them:

1. Tank Hunter Team (Molotov) - Ugh, the molotov won't do crap. However, the hand grandes they do carry seem to work better than the molotovs themselfs.

2. Tank Hunter Team (RPG Grenade) - The exact opposite of the Molotov. The RPG grenade is more accurate, has longer range, and either kills or immoblizes even a KT in one hit. Max range is 37m.

3. Flame Thrower - With a range of 45m it has the longest reach of any infantry AT weapon. Although not an AT weapon in it self it will get the job done just fine. The setbacks for it are the slow speed and very limited ammunition of the unit. It is interesting to note that even a miss by a FT team will sometimes cause a German tank to "pop smoke" and try to get away.

4. Pioneer squad - What it lacks in range (Stachel charge goes 29m) it makes up for in organic infantry defence, speed, and hitting power. Even near misses by the stachel charge can damage tracks or main guns.

I would recommend trying "The Nippy Challenge" a few times till you get the hang of taking out the big cats. The most important thing is to let them come to you. Use the hide command and cover arcs a lot so you can engage them on your terms.

[ April 18, 2003, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: Nippy ]

[Wolfe]

Also remember that in CMBB you don't have to penetrate the enemy tank's armor to get the crew to bail. A cacophony of AT guns 57mm or larger wailing on a tank's hull will rattle the crew, eventually immobilize it (or hit the gun), and the crew will then bail. The concentrated fire of 6 or more guns on a tank will take it out without penetrating, even if the guns only have HE to fire. You can buy a lot of AT guns for the price of one KT and then use them against his remaining infantry once the tanks are gone.

Cannonades are fun!

- Chris

[CombinedArms]

This effect probably accounts for one of my KT kills in the test QB described above. Only two of my guns showed KT kills, but three KT's died. I think one KT was abandoned due to fire from multiple guns without any clearly scoring a kill.

It seems to me that guns like the 57mm are the way to go against the KT because they can hide in cover and, with their high rate of fire, get mutiple shots on the KT before the tank can swing its turret, find it, and knock it out. A KT can kill any other tank on the board with a single shot, but it may take 2-3 shots to kill a gun. And even if the gun is killed, it's a cheaper loss than a tank.

In CMBB, many kills of atgs seem to come from multiple tanks ganging up on a single gun. But KTs are so pricey that it's hard to achieve that mutliple tank effect. Instead, with rarity off and KTs known to be coming, you can achieve the opposite effect of multiple guns on a single KT. Anyway, in my test, my 9 57mm's killed 3 KTs for a loss of just two guns. The guns were also effective vs. infantry and their towing vehicles, the 10 scout cars, also added to my anti-inf firepower. Both guns that were killed were caught while still in their setup phase. That means that no KT won a one-on-one battle with a 57mm that was ready to fire.

[ April 18, 2003, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]