The CM Community and Nazi Admiration

[reinald@berlin.com]

Dear Matt,

since you call me names, criticise me in a ad-hominem style in topics you close right afterwards and try to restrict free speech and justified political criticism I have to resort to reposting your words as a screenshot in order to be able to answer. So much for fairness and unbiased administration.

Now back to the facts:

Ok, a guy with a swastika in his sig pic and Nazi military insignia all over his site does not give you any reason to think he might have anything to with (Neo)Nazism? You prefer to call this 'promotion of the game'?

Excuse me, but I'm from a German-language country where a site like Eichenbaum's is definitely illegal. Please, please, Matt, forgive me for having concerns about Neonazism. I start to wonder if Dutch law enforcement (I think I read somewhere that Eichenbaum is from the Netherlands, correct me if I'm wrong) has as liberal views on this issue as you do and also wonder if I should ask them to check my concerns about the website in question.

I will refrain from commenting on your calling me an idiot and just want to suggest you might want to ban yourself for a little while for that.

Next, you're rambling about an uncalled attack. Well, let me answer to this that I exercise the right to personally criticise Nazis, Nazi-admirers and ppl I suspect may be such persons anywhere and at any time. Your hollow 'power' being the administrator of this board does in no way intimidate and prevent me from doing so, cause, as we all know, if I wanted to, I could register under a different nick the very next minute. I'd however prefer to keep my nick in order to seriously discuss my concerns. Instead of strong words like:

... boot your off this forum so quick that it will make your mother dizzy ...

This conduct by an administrator does not help anybody.

Ok, posting in the wrong thread is a ... bannable offense in itself .... All right, if you say so. Ever checked your own site for swastikas?

Your last paragraph is the most interesting one. You frankly state that (Neo)Nazism is of no concern to you and the owners of this site. I think that indeed is an interesting confession. I admit that I shouldn't have gone personal on Eichi when my concerns are of larger scope and seriously apologize for any namecalling I did. But, I will not rest to bring up the issue of Nazi-admiration, Neonazism and related stuff in this community no matter if you ban me or not.

Maybe, the result of this discussion, if you refrain from interfering with your administrative 'power', is that my concerns are unfounded, which I actually hope will be. But looking at all those brightly-swastikaed HTs that are modded, Eichenbaum's site and other indicators I fear they are not.

[ August 17, 2003, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: reinald@berlin.com ]

[Juju]

Um, does all this give you the right to call me a homosexual? Do you even know me? Have you got anything against homosexuals, maybe?

[SgtMuhammed]

So in your opinion anyone displaying swastikas or iron crosses is a Nazi lover. You might want to contact the Bundeswehr and have them turn themselves in.

[Redwolf]

Can you hold it for a sec while I get popcorn?

[reinald@berlin.com]

Nope, sgtgoody, the Bundeswehr on purpose did go for a noticeably different than WW2 iron cross marking. They won't have to turn themselves in, neither would I

However, them naming a garrison after Gen. Dietl is indeed an unnecessary issue on an otherwise AFAIK whiter than white file.

[eichenbaum]

I have added a statement on my site :

This site has nothing to do with any political issues. The information you'll find here is only about a wargame called Combat Mission.

It will make clear that I don't have any sympathy with nazis or extreme right sided movements so ever. You have truly insulted me by saying I do. These are false accusations and you should stop doing that.

I'm sorry if your offended in any way. This is not the attention to do so. So stop offending me.

And about law, you have taken material off my site without any permissions. By this way you have offended the copyright law !

[SgtMuhammed]

Then again are we forgetting that the iron cross preceeds the Nazis by years. I don't recall Hitler and co. running the show during WWI.

[Juju]

So, I'm attracted to blue eyed Landsers? You think?

[ August 17, 2003, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: Juju ]

[SirReal]

I can detect a whiff of it

I do believe it's very close

A mounting sense of certainity

That somewhere near I'll find

Begone to Coventry, foul beast!

/SirReal

[reinald@berlin.com]

Originally posted by Juju:

Um, does all this give you the right to call me a homosexual? Do you even know me? Have you got anything against homosexuals, maybe?

Err, oops. I have to correct myself. Meant the post in an ironic way, maybe that didn't come through. But indeed I suspect Nazi-admiration to have, on a sideline, sometimes something to do with covert-homosexuality. Which of course doesn't mean that every homo or even a larger number of them is pro-Nazi.

I mistook you for the creator of this mod that bugs me:

which had me go harsher and faster on the trigger on you than necessary.

Sorry. Ya know, all those Nazi mods that numerically exceed the other Nation's stuff by such a great margin just bug me.

As for your question about my position on homosexuality: I oppose and fight the radical homosexual agenda with democratic means, but I have nothing against homosexual individuals.

[Auggy]

SirReal- Is that Boo's mum?

[SirReal]

Originally posted by Sir Augustus:

SirReal- Is that Boo's mum?

Um. I didn't know Radley had a mother. Don't mushroomshaped gremlins reproduce by extruding copies of themselves?

/SirReal

[reinald@berlin.com]

Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq):

Then again are we forgetting that the iron cross preceeds the Nazis by years. I don't recall Hitler and co. running the show during WWI.

Good point, but those crosses on Eichenbaum's site are WWII origin. Also did the Bundeswehr judge the WWII style iron cross to be politically linked to Nazi and Wehrmacht warcrimes, why they went for a differnt design that kept the tradition, which is perfectly ok for me.

[MrSpkr]

Reinald, you're a troll.

Were you aware the Iron Cross came about 120 years prior to the foundation of the Nazi party?

Were you aware that someone can be a student of the era without agreeing with the political policies?

Were you aware that some people actually are fascinated by the German military machine of the 1930s-1940s era?

Did you find ANYTHING on Eichenbaum's site that explicitly said "Gee those Nazis were sweet, and by sweet I mean totally cool! I wish I could have been a Nazi, yesirree! I would look so HOT in black leather!"?

You were a troll, and you were called out for it. Now you are trying to act as if YOU were the aggreived party.

The reality is, you are nothing more than a pathetic bully and a rude individual.

Or, as I indicated in the previous thread, merely a "jerk".

Why don't you go troll somewhere else and leave this forum for the grown ups?

Steve

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by SirReal:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sir Augustus:

SirReal- Is that Boo's mum?

Um. I didn't know Radley had a mother. Don't mushroomshaped gremlins reproduce by extruding copies of themselves?

/SirReal </font>

[_Axe_]

Dang I'm late!

*as he sets up chair, plunks down cooler full of beer and settles in*

Oh please, don't stop on my account. Continue.

Hey Steve -- have you used the Haaaaarrrrrr!!!!!!! IRL yet?

[reinald@berlin.com]

Originally posted by eichenbaum:

I have added a statement on my site :

This site has nothing to do with any political issues. The information you'll find here is only about a wargame called Combat Mission.

It will make clear that I don't have any sympathy with nazis or extreme right sided movements so ever. You have truly insulted me by saying I do. These are false accusations and you should stop doing that.

I'm sorry if your offended in any way. This is not the attention to do so. So stop offending me.

And about law, you have taken material off my site without any permissions. By this way you have offended the copyright law !

Ok, I accept and believe your claim that you do not have any p o l i t i c a l sympathies for Nazism.

Just to get things right:

I had a second look at your sig pic (or buckle or whatever) and it still looks like a swastika to me. Just tell me if it is a swastika or not. If it's not, I will immediately call a truce and apologize for all swastika-realted criticism.

However, I think that there's some Wehrmacht-admiration coming through on your site and got the impression that your scenarios fall into the Über-German genre. It is important for me to state that the Wehrmacht(-leadership) was as much a part of the Third Reich state as e.g. the Nazi party itself or the GeStaPo. Most individual soldiers may have managed to stay clear from warcrimes, but the leadership from operational level upwards was knee-deep into warcrimes and knew what was going on.

Just have a look at the Babi-Yar massacre or numerous other incidents in the East.

I therefore think that we should pull the break a little on overmodding German vehicles and soldiers, cause it makes our community look bad and may damage CM as such. Wargaming isn't actually a socially-accepted pasttime over here and it doesn't help wargaming when it can be linked to bright swastikas on HT sprites.

[Brightblade]

Originally posted by reinald@berlin.com

Excuse me, but I'm from a German-language country where a site like Eichenbaum's is definitely illegal. Please, please, Matt, forgive me for having concerns about Neonazism. I start to wonder if Dutch law enforcement (I think I read somewhere that Eichenbaum is from the Netherlands, correct me if I'm wrong) has as liberal views on this issue as you do and also wonder if I should ask them to check my concerns about the website in question.

AFAIK the law in Germany (which is the country with the most restrictive laws on Third Reich symbols (again AFAIK)) permits the even usage swastikas - in a historical context. Which includes for example plastic models of aircrafts, tanks etc.

However, I have to admit that some stupid idiots use this as an excuse to cover their (IMO very strange) political opinion.

Anyway, the Iron Cross is NOT a Third Reich symbol. That medal was founded in the Liberation Wars (1814 IIRC) and therefor is much older than the idea of Nazism and it has been in use in every German army (or Prussian before 1871) since then.

So why not use it on a military homepage?

[SgtMuhammed]

Sorry, just can't let this one go.

One: both version of the Iron Cross look the same, especially the insignia that was used for vehicles.

Two: In 1957 the German government declared that the Iron Cross was an award for military bravery rather than for political belief and so authorized its wear.

Once again I have to ask. Is it your opinion that using anything used by the Nazis makes one a Nazi lover?

What about the new "Fritz" helmets used by both the US and the Bundeswehr?

What about the continuing practice of using cat names for MBTs?

What about the continuing use of the German National Anthem? After all it has the same music just different words.

I distinctly remember driving down a Manteufel Strasse in Berlin, more Nazi sympathy?

There is a difference between not repeating the past and trying to enforce amnesia.

[theike]

I have just been reading all of the Eichenbaum topic;

and i say BAN Reinhard.

Not just for getting into a accusational mood around Eichembaum...but hes showing his true nature as he starts talking to JUJU.

I say ban him.

I dont care to hear another word from that guy.

[ August 17, 2003, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: theike ]

[Juju]

Originally posted by reinald@berlin.com:

I mistook you for the creator of this mod that bugs me:

which had me go harsher and faster on the trigger on you than necessary.

As for your question about my position on homosexuality: I oppose and fight the radical homosexual agenda with democratic means, but I have nothing against homosexual individuals.

Well, if you're gonna have problems with AndrewTF (the maker of that, and countless other excellent mods), you're going to have problems with me.

As for your position on homosexuality: You, Sir, are a hypocryte.

[theike]

oh,i see he just had the time to explane that one to me.

well.......

I dont see how someone with that big a problems with a games subject as we have here, does play it.

I mean we ARE trying to create a close to true immage of ww2 happenings.

And put into that light; whats wrong with a swastica around at places?

Its not like we al try to be in a political movement here and try to create a virtual world of any pro-nazi liking, is it?

Its just what was out there, at that time.

If u dont want to see it, because you cant bare the sight of it....

then well...u have options

[ August 17, 2003, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: theike ]

[KnifeForkSpoon]

Reinald = Doofus.

What a waste of my time.

[reinald@berlin.com]

@Brightblade:

I'm fully aware of the fact that the Iron Cross is not a Nazi symbol as such and that one could state, if one forcedly ingores the historical lines connecting the 2nd Reich to the 3rd Reich, that the Nazis abused it for their own warmongering purposes.

But the real question is where historical interest ends and undue Nazi-military admiration begins. And I, forgive me, take the point of view that our community suffers from a share of interest turned Nazi-admiration. Proof? Well, just download some Über-SS or Über-GD scenario offered.

If this is justification enough for lowbrows like Stevie above to call me names, well then it may be. Just marks the point I make brightly: (Mostly) juvenile Nazi-admiration turning aggressive and extinctionist once someone blows the whistle on them.

[eichenbaum]

The eichenbaum website as it is now has everything to do with Operation Störfang. It's history. We can't do anything about that.

It was on my planning list that as soon as I had finished I would make a Russian version.

It WAS a swastika in the picture. If you look close you can see that is made blurry and bumpy. That is to make it unrecognizable. You're offended about what is left of it. To me it's the same as making a movie that takes place in WWII. You'll find these sign clearly visible all over the film.

You should concern about organizations who do sympathize extreme right sided movements. Not some graphics on a website of a wargame. Games are made for fun, you're displaying it in a bad daylight. I don't think that's fair.

Go on and scan the internet for real neo-nazi sites and make them life miserable.

Never, I repeat never did anyone asked me about the graphics on my site in that way. And I have had visitors from many countries such as Israel.

And if it would make you feel better, I'm willing to make my logo more blurry. But where is gonna stop ? You could go tell anybody not to pick the German side in CM because the might get extreme right ideas.

(typo)

[ August 17, 2003, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: eichenbaum ]